Artificial Intelligence Podcast: ChatGPT, Claude, Midjourney and all other AI Tools

Is AI Killing SEO With Jason Berkowitz

• Jonathan Green : Artificial Intelligence Expert and Author of ChatGPT Profits • Episode 369

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Welcome to the Artificial Intelligence Podcast with Jonathan Green! In this episode, we dive into the evolving landscape of digital marketing with SEO expert Jason Berkowitz. Together, they explore whether AI is rendering traditional SEO obsolete and what this means for the future of online content.

Jason shares insightful perspectives on the current state of SEO, emphasizing that while AI is influencing how search engines operate, SEO is far from dead. He discusses the importance of maintaining quality content that serves user experience while adapting to evolving digital dynamics. Jason highlights the necessity of focusing efforts on middle and bottom-of-the-funnel strategies for higher conversion rates in the age of AI.

Notable Quotes:

  • "We don't know what the future's gonna hold. We're in that evolution period." - [Jason Berkowitz]
  • "The question then is, okay, if you're losing clicks maybe getting impressions, but losing clicks from super informational queries, were you going to get revenue from that traffic anyways?" - [Jason Berkowitz]
  • "The pursuit of good content will always rise to the top." - [Jonathan Green]
  • "There is AI burnout anyways... the changing times SEO strategies just need to evolve." - [Jason Berkowitz]

Jason emphasizes the need for adaptability within the SEO space, recognizing that digital marketers must evolve alongside technological advances. He advises leveraging platforms where your audience resides, be it YouTube, social media, or emerging AI platforms, and reiterates the enduring relevance of SEO for driving organic revenue.

Connect with Jason Berkowitz:

For anyone navigating the tumultuous waters of SEO in the digital age, this episode provides valuable insights and actionable strategies. Tune in to learn more about thriving in a rapidly changing digital ecosystem!

Connect with Jonathan Green

Is AI killing SEO? Let's find out what today's special guest, Jason Berkowitz. Welcome to the Artificial Intelligence Podcast, where we make AI simple, practical, and accessible for small business owners and leaders. Forget the complicated T talk or expensive consultants. This is where you'll learn how to implement AI strategies that are easy to understand and can make a big impact for your business. The Artificial Intelligence Podcast is brought to you by fraction, a IO, the trusted partner for AI Digital transformation. At fraction a IO, we help small and medium sized businesses boost revenue by eliminating time wasting non-revenue generating tasks that frustrate your team. With our custom AI bots, tools and automations, we make it easy to shift your team's focus to the task. That matter most. Driving growth and results, we guide you through a smooth, seamless transition to ai, ensuring you avoid policy mistakes and invest in the tools that truly deliver value. Don't get left behind. Let fraction aio help you. Stay ahead in today's AI driven world. Learn more. Get started. Fraction aio.com. Jason, I'm excited to have you here because we've seen massive drops in traffic over the past year. We've seen Google make some big moves where first they started pulling summaries and now they're doing more and more aa, AI things that are taking the content and trying to keep you from visiting website. We just saw a study came out this week that says people, when they get the results from ai, they don't even click the link. So is there any benefit to S-E-S-E-O and there's talk of switching to a AIO or a AEO, what is the future like? Is it over? First off, thank you Jonathan for bringing me on here. This is awesome to be here. I think it's so nuanced and there's so much here to talk about that first and foremost, I think the main takeaway is we really don't know. We don't know what the future's gonna hold. We're in that evolution period. But there's so much expectations of user behavior shifts, consumer behavior shifts. The question about if people are soured now with a horrible AI experience,'cause of hallucinations and all that, is that also going to impact the. Predictable evolution of what's taking place right now. So it's definitely an interesting time that I don't think anybody really knows the answer to. Nor are there any proven frameworks for GEO ai LLM optimization right now. I think the best thing we can do is just collect data. We built a tool internally which hits all the different APIs and just starts collecting data based on prompts just so we can gauge our clients' presence in these different tools, but also just regular. GEO or whatever acronym you choose, is still a really good SEO, and at the end of the day, it should all be about the user. But SEO is not dead and doesn't seem like it's going to be dead for a long time. Nor is Google dead. Google still controlling the largest market share of search by a really wide margin as well. And to your point about. Links and links from chat GPT. Mentions are great to follow, but what happens when you get a mention on chat, GPT, like for product research, but they don't give you the link. The question is, where are you gonna go next? You're gonna go to Google and type in that brand name? Yeah. Yeah. I think what we're seeing like is the logs and that type of content, or educational content, and it creates this race to the bottom. Perfect examples. Reddit sold all of their data to Google and then Google as well. We send traffic anymore, the traffic's down 60, 80%. That's which number you look at, and we're seeing it happen to a lot of smaller websites where let's say you post news related content, right? Fresh content like content rather than. Product. Google just gives people the answer and you don't click to the website. That's what we're really seeing is that for Google, it used to be very simple. You'd get traffic from Google, then you'd sell it back in the form of ad sets, right? You'd it's this cycle and we just cut out the websites. But I also think this leads to a massive decrease in the quality. So then no one's gonna write, why write quality content if no one's ever gonna see it? So it creates this or Boros like the snake, its own tail where. Then Google's worthless because first, you keep buying content from lower and lower quality sources, like Reddit's not the best source, and then you go lower and lower, and then pretty soon you have content. Written that's derivative of Reddit and we're already seeing X'S model, the Twitter model is talking about, they're gonna start deleting content from the training material that they don't think is true. So you should clean the content first. It's wait, the Twitter AI is gonna decide what's true or not and then train a new AI and you're just gonna create digital Idiocracy. So I guess the real question is for someone who. Is thinking, Ooh, they have, they've already seen their traffic decrease, or they're a small website. They've really been using organic strategies in the past. If they're not a physical product, especially, let's really think about people that are in the content space or digital product. How can they still survive in this environment where it's getting really cutthroat and really tough? Yeah. For publishers. And publications that do rely on ads and AdSense and other similar type of platforms, it's really hard for them. And I've spoken with quite a few people who are heads of SEO at big publications and they've been trying to figure the same thing out. And it's just now moving away from organic news discover. As a traffic source and lean in and allocate resources more to other marketing verticals like social, like YouTube and stuff. So publications is a really tough one because it's definitely hasn't been fair to publications. Then you're, to your point about, training data on publication data or like user generated content which is subjective sometimes. Reddit can be good, but also Reddit can be very toxic. So what does that mean? I think you bring up a really great point on the business of publications that I don't have the answer to. I think it's a really tough one. Other brands though that have been impacted with declines in organic search and clicks, we've also, I think the consensus has been, and we've seen for our clients as well, super top of the funnel type of queries and intent, like super informational intent has been impacted. The question then is, okay, if you're losing clicks maybe getting impressions, but losing clicks from super informational queries, were you going to get revenue from that traffic anyways? The answer is probably not, is people are not in buyer's mode. They don't have their wallet handy. They're just looking for a simple answer to a question. So SEOs, or whether in-house or brand is using a third party agency. They need to be more strategic about where they're putting their effort into. Maybe getting a bit more middle of the funnel, bottom of the funnel. Things that are closer to the actual transaction point has been more fruitful. There's not as many AI overviews appearing for more transactional intent, and it'll just help serve conversions better. It's what's the point of all this traffic if people aren't converting anyways? So traffic value might be low, but maybe conversion value will go up tremendously. I think that there's like this shift when I first was in the internet, early nineties, mid nineties, AOL, so everything goes one portal of the website and now we're seeing where if Google turns off all the search traffic groups, they're starting to do, then it's gonna be like, I'm only on Facebook, or I'm only on Twitter, and it shifts. These few big sites will become, in a short term period, the replacement for a AOL, right? Like the placement of, oh, I only see internet to Twitter. There's people who. Only search on TikTok for information. They only use that as their platform. And I wonder if we'll go through a period of that and then another fracturing like we did after AOL kind of fell apart where people suddenly didn't need to go through AOL to get on the internet. So it's a very interesting time and it's also how can a business endure during the most tumultuous time possible? And it, I think it is important because we've seen a lot of SEO tactics have been about. Massaging the numbers. I've certainly seen plenty of websites like rank for keywords that are completely irrelevant, like how to reset your Google password. Yeah. It makes it look like you have a lot of potential search, but it's not real. So that's always been one of the challenges. And I think that it doesn't like people still want personalized content. That's why we're seeing fracturing other markets where we're seeing explosion of Patreon. We're seeing the explosion of other similar platforms where you can have. A smaller audience, but they'll pay for your content. And it's interesting that seems to be working better for smaller creators than for larger brands. Like people are a lot more likely to pay$5 a month for a small comedian that they like than they are for the New York Times. So we're seeing something that I actually think may be a larger opportunity for really small creators who if you get a thousand people paying you $5 a month, that's a great life. That's a really solid, you know what I mean? That's perfect. Like you got nothing to complain about. You pay your bills, you're doing what you love, and then you can grow that to maybe 1100 people, 1500 people. So I guess that's really the question. As we, we've seen a lot of like SEO, the sky's falling periods, right? Every time there's a massive update from Google, the traffic is over it. It's every three months. And now we're hearing it's all different forms of apocalypse. But now what I'm really noticing is. That Google really is trying to keep you from clicking anything. If I do a search, I have to really dig and scroll down to see a website that it hasn't paid to be there. And we have seen them do these changes in the past, like easy and articles used to be the number one result. And then it was wikiHow, right? Like these different platforms were like everywhere. And then article writing used to be an entire business model, right? Huge S model like 12, 15 years ago, gone. Spinning nobody, you've never seen easy articles as search results anymore, right? Oh wow. Google has this power to making kill a business. And we're seeing them do it to Reddit and we're seeing them do it to other platforms. But even we're seeing competitors. And this is interesting, like perplexity is like now we have search results that are like shopping related results.'cause they're like, how do we monetize our platform? We'll be affiliates for shopping stuff. Do you think that. The internet is gonna get better or worse. Like that's, I think about with ai, we're getting back to internet 30 years ago where you can actually find what you're looking for. Like when I would do a search in 2001, I would actually find the website I was looking for in the first two or three resources. That's not the case with Google, right? It's never what you're looking for. And you have to dig through it. It's ads everywhere. And so it does bring it back to oh, we've gotten back to neutral, but. It's also really hard because so many people still, they just think search equals Google AI equals ChatGPT BT, and it equals Facebook. How like for smaller creators or even for like larger brands, how do they start to get noticed again? What's the new path? Forward? Forward? Yeah. I think you bring up tons of really great points. The interesting part is. We're people in the tech ophere, like the broad tech ophere, that could be any type of business. We're the ones that see most of the noise, and then we're the ones that get most of that fear. It's like real fear, mar fear marketing that's out there about this evolution. But the everyday person who's not in the tech ophere, not like reading things on LinkedIn and Twitter and stuff about how the sky is falling and AI is changing everything. They got no freaking idea what's going on. They have no idea what perplexity is. And there's actually studies on this. They've done surveys on real people. They have no idea what perplexity is. They know chat, GPT 'cause of memes. They know Gemini because of commercials. They have no idea what Claude is. So we're in this bubble of fear that the sky is falling. But that bubble's really small compared to the rest of the world that's not hanging out in LinkedIn and talking about technology and marketing and ai. And it's really interesting and what's gonna happen is still yet to be determined because of that exact fact. A lot of people are making assumptions about what's going to change. I think you have a very valid point about the platforms and like the variety of places to get that dopamine or gratification that you're looking for in any capacity, which I think is awesome. Maybe that monopoly that Google has, 'cause it is a monopoly, is slowly getting broken up. Bing starting to get a little bit more market share. But then, yeah, you got TikTok and you have all these different platforms. Patreon going to people directly that can be really advantageous. And from a marketing perspective, go to where your audiences is, your audience on YouTube, is your audience in a specific forum? Is your audience on Reddit? Is your audience on a open ai, a chat, GPT? Maybe It's still on Google. It's a very interesting time. Yeah. I think that's one of the important lessons is that people are still on the internet. They're just behaviors shifting. And we've seen this happen before, right? Like everyone, I was really good at MySpace. That doesn't help anymore. What's the point? Friends just gone. Platforms come and go and Facebook was cool until your parents joined. So we're seeing all of these shifts and the really important skill, and I think this is key, especially in the spirit of ai, is adaptability. Yeah, you're seeing so many things, like when one platform stops working, you just move to another one. Like I have done a massive shift to Pinterest 'cause it's a particular type of person, so a lot of traffic on there. It's a really fun platform. It's really interesting because it's nobody's mean on Pinterest. You're like, that's weird. Like every other social media platform, people are mean. It's really like everyone seems, it's because it's not comment based. It's more of a visual search engine, but it doesn't have any negativity to it. You never see anything on Pinterest that makes you feel bad. Just Don. Yeah. Like it doesn't work on there. So it's interesting in that way, in that. And also like I'm a big fan of LinkedIn, but it's, you can control your experience, who you follow, who you engage with. If you get pulled in a negative, more of your negativity. If you just follow stuff you like, lots of good stuff, you can really control your feed. But it is an important lesson, which is where's your audience, how is their behavior changing? And we've seen big companies make huge mistakes. Nobody is using 3D goggles to do work right now. One of my business partners lives in New York, and I was like, how often do you see people on the subway with an Air Vision Pro? All the time? He was like, what? That's, yeah. Stop using. Yeah, because it's like there's no benefit to having a headset on all day to have the exact same experience. Nothing changes other than your neck hurts. And we're seeing a lot of these mis mistakes, right? They're making these bets that people's behavioral change in certain ways. Like we're seeing a lot of shit. One of the things I see in AI that makes me crazy is everyone's going after AI voice. Nobody wants to talk to a foreigner on a support line, let alone an AI voice. Like it's the, they found something worse, right? Than a person doesn't speak English. Now it's like not a person and it's this. Pivot and what you're gonna see, I've already seen it happen where certain brands go heavy on the AI for their content, and then their audience goes, oh, this person hates me. If you don't care about me enough to write the email yourself, why would I read it? It's it's such a like disparity in power. That's why if you write the letter to a president, someone writes back, they use a, they try to make it feel like it's a real letter, right? Like somebody, they either have someone who signs and that's how they use a stamp. Like they don't send you a form letter that makes you feel impersonal. That's, and that's like the president or celebrities too, like whatever it is, like that really makes a difference. And I think that. We're unfortunately seeing a shift where people, this is seeing it here all the time. It's oh, I want AI to do on my social media. I'm like, cool. That way your audience, like you should definitely outsource interaction with your audience, like your place, your phone call with ai, your social media ai. That way you never know what your audience wants. You won't know if they leave and if things go bad, it'll be too late to fix it. So you're missing all of the warning signs. I really see like email, social media. Support lines. Those are like the canary in the coal mine that let you know if something's wrong or people what they wanna buy. And you start to block out those lines of communication, that's when like you get really disconnected. And I think that's this dangerous space. The value in like organic content is like the comments. That's why any platform that turns off their comments, you already know like it's just a matter of time.'cause it's like they're no longer engaging with your audience. This is not a conversation. Like the cool thing about the internet is you can leave a comment. Like I there's an author who I really like who writes under the name Ethics Holden. He wrote this really great AI theory in a book about submarine warfare. And I was like, this is one of the best things I've ever read. It was so good. I messaged on LinkedIn. Now we follow each other on LinkedIn on that's what's really cool is that you can admire someone, message them and they respond. Or you can, it used to be you'd message someone on Twitter like that you admired, and then they'd say something nice back. Now it's like you try and rage bait them, which is a shame. But like the idea that you can message someone and kind of they respond. You could say, Hey, what does the end of interview with a vampire mean? And then they'll tell you, that's really the good part of the internet. So the more we put AI in there, the value of social media disappears. Like the value of social media is not one way. It's the directional content. It's the possibility of someone reading your comments. So the more we glut it with ai, I think we do lose that. And I think that the value of SEO originally was like, I can find a blog or a small piece of content by someone that I like and I can leave a comment, they'll respond to it. So that still exists. In the form of Paton, in the form of podcasting. So we're just seeing, I think, a shift in how you get, but you want the same thing, if you have the choice of following someone with 10 million followers and they will never respond to your comment, or someone with 10,000, they respond to every comment you leave, you're gonna see a fraction, which I think is a good thing. I think you're actually gonna see an explosion of creators explos of smaller channels, which means that more people can have careers. We don't need just a few superstars. That's why I like the difference between YouTube and Netflix, right? Netflix is 10 terrible movies that cost hundreds of million dollars. Or you can find the creator you want. Sometimes I follow a creator with 2000 followers. I'm like, every video they want put out I watch because it's a micro relationship. And that really is the difference. And I think that is what the opportunities, but people start to realize. Your audience still wants your content. They just have to find it in a different way. And the one of the problems with SEO over the past 10 years is that you have to do more and more stuff to optimize your content, so the quality of your content. Would go down, right? It's oh, first I had to be 500 words, then a thousand words, then 3000 words. Then you have to have more and more keywords, and so you'd spend so much time optimizing and using tools to optimize for the SEO robot. So you peer search engines that the person visiting your blog isn't getting the experience. Like instead of getting the 500 word answer, now they're getting the 3000 word article like that caused this shift where you go I have to optimize, I have to have the right number of keywords, right number of HT tags, the right number of images, all of this stuff that was not about. The person's experience. And that's always the challenge. I know you face this is like I have to balance ranking search engine and the people actually liking the content they get. And it's like, what if you could just write really good content or create videos that people liked and you didn't have to optimize it for Google? Like that's a world I would love to live in, right? Imagine if just every. Video you watched on YouTube you liked wouldn't that be like, what a crazy world to live in, or like every blog you visited was the answer to your question. So I guess the real question is like, how do we get to that world where we actually get the benefit of AI instead of it making everything terrible? Yeah, you brought up a really great point. Adapt and evolve. There's a trade among people that have been doing SEO for many years. You've been in it since the nineties and digital, so you probably remember the 2010 era. I very much did.'cause it's when I started in SEO, that was like SEO is dead. That was like the first everything we were doing, spamming the crap out of the web. Just changed overnight with the first panda update, which was about quality. Then a year later, penguin came out, which is about links and just completely slipped everything on its head. There's a trade of people that continue to do well in their field. It's perseverance, adapt, and evolve in those specific cases. From what we've seen and the data collection we've seen over the years is that I think we give sometimes Google too much credit, but they have made some really good advancements when it came to SEO where we didn't necessarily need to target from our side and just from what we've seen, specific word counts, stuffing the keyword in a bunch of times. But being thematically relevant and really genuinely trying to blend user experience with topical themes has helped our clients write really great content overall and help bring people to the next stage of the funnel. I think that's something that Google has done very well whereas again, yeah, readability instead of the keyword in there a million times. What's interesting now? Everyone's talking about optimize your content for ai, but then again, like what you said, what's happening to the user experience, like you're optimizing for ai, but then somebody gets to your article, they don't take an action or a next step, and it's like oddly coming full circle until AI gets advanced, AI until LLMs get advanced enough to determine hopefully objectively what is good quality content that is beneficial for users. Instead of right now we're in this game, including Google of which platform is the best for X, which platform is the best for Y? And they're all trying to do it all, and all it's doing is not creating a good user experience for people. So it's still just like a weird change of times. And I don't agree with this whole optimized for AI thing. I think there's a lot of information out there that shows that. LLMs text doesn't do anything because it's a proposal not an actual thing. And if you look at crawl stats from your server logs, nobody's pulling up your LLMs do text file and there are things like structured data. Sure. Right now the only thing we can do is just track visibility and continue doing what we're doing. Good. Marketing. Good. SEO. Write content that you think would be value valuable to users. Use it for social, use it for email if it gets picked up by Google Suite, if Google shows an AI overview, let's try and be the first one mentioned. And then you got AI overview. Now also taking a shift 'cause Google's testing out the placement of AI overview. So there's a lot of screenshots out there. I've seen it in some of my searches. Now there's sometimes sure the paid maybe four organic results and then AI overviews. So what is that gonna look like with click-through rate? We're all historical data's lost. There's no like consistent data tracking to see what things look like'cause everything's so up in the air. But I think that just shows that like we're in a state of revolution, adapt and evolve, but don't jump the gun and don't do things that may not be applicable. Yeah. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. Yeah, I think that. The core message, and this is the thing that kind of is through line for me, is that people who get so caught up in the acronym search engine optimization, it's what is S-E-O-S-E-O is creating a way for people who want your content to find your content without you paying. That's what it really means. If we cut it down to organic, we start thinking, okay. People are changing how they search or how they do things. And we're certainly seeing a big spike in like referrals or recommendations. Like whenever I'm hiring an engineer, I'm far more likely to hire a referral where someone actually knows them.'Cause you do the entire like recruiting space, job seeking space is trash right now. AI's ruined it. They have 600 resumes written by ai. They get read by an AI and misread. You miss both sides have a bad experience.'cause people are lying about the resumes, people are misreading the resumes and it's actually destroyed that space. So what do You shift to, do you know somebody who could do this? That has become getting asked, do you know somebody who could do this job has spiked for me in the last six months, like 10 x. It comes up so much more often, whereas in the 10 years before that, it never came up.'cause you could post a job on search platforms and you get resumes and like now there's even people, they'll have ChatGPT open during the interview and do all those things. And you have to now you have to develop detection techniques into the more and more complicated questions that AI can't answer and do a lot of tricks, but it. The shift towards, and just thinking of the core concept, which is I wanna make content that people like and that people can find. The way people are searching is changing slightly. Now. People don't use LLMs to find fiction or entertainment. They're not using it to find today's news very much. It's a very rare use case. So it's, there are certain things you search for, which is like how to change a tire. So there are some websites where that disappears, but honestly, I'm gonna watch a video. It's I need to know exactly where to put the jack under my car. You know what I mean? So the, I think video is taken that space, but there is a certain type of informational content where you're writing an essay, you're doing that type of research. Maybe it's gonna push Wikipedia away. That might get replaced with LLMs, but the actual content and most content there, it's entertainment. You could call it educational. You could watch Discovery Channel for six years and learn everything you can about running a pawn shop, but you won't be able to do it, I can go into a garage right now and say that's a little bicycle, but I still don't know what it's worth or how to restore it. I've watched so many of those videos, right? It's not actually educational. It's still entertainment. So if you think about that, it's your entertainment and people are shifting towards. Fractional is, that's why people have their favorite creators. Most people don't watch 500 different YouTube channels. They follow 10, 50, or a hundred creators, and that's it. You lock in to what you're interested in. You develop your own television channels. So I think that to me is really the future, is that seeing that AI shaking up things, but it's fracturing the market, which is a really good thing. I think it's actually a big opportunity for smaller players, and it's a big opportunity for you to make content that you're proud of Again. Like when I shifted from SEO focus to Pinterest focus, it's like I don't have to put any keywords in my content. I don't have to think about that. I just write content that answers the question and that I think is good. Has pictures that I like and and I still get the same amount of traffic. That's a good feeling. That, and then people who visit my website, either like me or hate me, they're snow middle. And that's what you really want is your superfan and people who would never be fans anyway to separate themselves as quick as possible. So that's how I see it. I see it as it is a tumultuous time and it. Especially for people that have like really low quality content and rely on like you visit a news website there, you can't turn off the video thing that's playing. You can't turn off all these offensive ads. And I think the same thing about podcasts. It's so many podcasts have ads for things that you would never wanna talk about in person. It's like gambling or. Legal stuff or all sort, or like underwear, like every podcast has an underwear sponsor. It's I don't know what brand of underwear any of my friends wear. It's literally never come up. You know what I mean? That's something you ask them at the bar. It's exactly. But, and yet in podcasts you have to do it. So the shift of weight, hopefully we see a shift more and more weight from like bad advertising and start thinking about what about the experience? It's I could visit two blog. This one is 500 ads. This has none. And then I do see. Sponsorships. People are much more likely to spend $20 a month with a brand they like or a content creator they like than they are with Netflix. Netflix doesn't cost that People complain about that. So I think that's, that kind of is what has me excited that AI will fracture the market and create opportunities. But obviously for the really big creators, that's a negative thing. But for the smaller people, that's an opportunity. Yeah, it could be. What's interesting is I'm a city boy from New York and I moved to Salt Lake a couple years ago and I'm learning how to be handy, and YouTube videos tremendously help with like DIY stuff. But I decided to test out Gemini live on my phone, and I was like, damn, this has. Pretty legit. I have a complex sprinkler system in the house I bought and Gemini live. I turn on my camera and I'm pointing at it, and I'm talking to it and it's telling me what to do, and I'm like, wow. And then it asks, Hey, I think you'll need this part. Do you want me to see if the local do Lowe's or Home Depot has it for you? And I'm like, damn. So I, it's such an interesting time and I think stuff like that. I love the small creators of the DIY and the guys in their garage. I always appreciate them. I think they have the best information, especially like the little hacks, but the impact that, stuff like that. For guys who are learning how to be handy, what would that look like for even the smaller creators? That's an interesting one. I Gemini Live is, it's hit and miss, but it's, yeah, I think that, how many lock picking videos have you watched, but you've never actually picked a lock? Every guy watches us. We all do it. How stuff works. I remember, yeah. We're all watching every, everyone I know at some point watches lock picking videos or I watch, I get interested in those things, but I don't know how to do any of that. I'm not handy in that way. I can take, I'm gonna need this in 10 years. I'm gonna need this information in 10 years. Yeah. It's if I watch this enough, I'll become a little bit more manly. I'll feel more macho. So there is part of it that, again, it's the entertainment space and it's really interesting to watch certain types of content that you go through. Like I watch rich retro video game content. I don't play any retro video games. I did it when they came out like 30 years ago. So you do a lot of the content, you watch you, even when it's DIY stuff, I watch one of DI stuff that I'll never do. So there is still that element to it and I think that we will see it again because it's educational implementable. It may be combi gets replaced with ai, which is an AI scans room. You can tell. Exactly what size toilet I have. Or the right size toilet seat, and get the right size bolts that's come up for us with quite a few toilet seats we've ordered online that, do you have a circle or an O? I'm like, what? Those sound like the same thing to me. Wrong shape or it's a, is it a U or a circle? Like they both look like circles in the picture. I don't know. So I can see that a lot of that, so it may become in some areas that things do disappear, but it's also I don't know. I think we always worry that things will go away. We saw this with music when Napster came out. People are still music. There's no more money music. Musicians still seem to get pretty rich. What we actually have seen is a shift to all the money is made in concerts. Which is how music was in the 18 hundreds. We've literally gone back full circle to 120 years ago. If you wanted to make money as a musician, you would travel from town to town and sing in bars or saloons, whoever get paid. And now that's what you do as a, it's just arenas and stuff. And also I think music is fracturing towards more smaller bands. That's why you're seeing less arena tours, less stadium tours, and a lot more smaller things, which again is, it's really good. Like my favorite singer has 3000 followers. Guess what my fa and I found, and they got 3000 followers. They got diehard fans. Yeah. You find that's the thing is that you find you can find someone you like. You become a super fan and like you can message them and they'll reply and that's really cool. I think that's the kind of future that I want. So I do see, it will be interesting to see which things last and which things don't. It's I don't think. DIY type content will disappear. It may change its format. We may engage with it in different ways. Like those people will just have to adapt. I never thought people would pay to like just watch some of those play a video game. That's wild to me. But it's huge. So we, the market is constantly shifting. It's just changing faster. And that, I think, to write this right now, ai, like SEO is the scapegoat.'cause yeah, things are change, but it's been changing for a long time. Like you said, Anguin and. All those updates. I remember that where it was like,'cause it used to be, oh, you would just put links on everyone's comments on every blog and it would link back to yours and you'd get traffic. So it was really like social bookmarks, easy articles, all horrible. Yeah. It was all automation and it's always been that way. So I think that the pursuit of good content will always rise to the top. There's something about that and that it's just, the other trick is how do I get found? And once you figure that out, and it's different for everyone. It's a for market. I see this a lot. Like I do a lot of interviews with startups and there's so many startups that are failing, and I'm like what problem do you solve? That's why you're gonna fail if you don't have an answer to that. That's why your business, you have a cool product, there's a lot of cool AI stuff, but it's not gonna last. And it's the same thing, which is who is your audience? Where are they and what do they want? Yeah, and there's definitely AI burnout anyways. Everyone does this memes and stuff about oh, why is sell me this pen from like Wolf of Wall Street? It's AI powered. I think, yeah, it's, listen, I don't use AI outside of work. There's this misconception, like I live on a tropical island. I go to the beach, my phone, the sound is never turned on. It's never set to vibrate unless my wife is like at the doctor's office, one of my kids. Then I'll turn the sound on, but that's it. So I very much a Luddite when I'm not at work. And that's the thing, the purpose of AI is really to allow you to spend more time not doing computer stuff. That's the most important thing. Yeah, so you're exactly right about the burnout because the idea of I'm gonna wear a headset and AI controls everything I see and does all my work within, you're like complete disconnect from reality. So I do think that's the right direction for people that are trying to figure out how to navigate this thing or they're seeing a drop in their traffic and they're like, I better turn this around. They are interested in kind of this content path you've talked about. Where's the best place for 'em to find you and see what you're doing online, see all the amazing stuff you're working on? Yeah, so definitely yeah, shifting definitely plug. But at this moment, as long as AI will continue to gaslight, you will continue to be a yes man. We'll continue to hallucinate, give inaccurate information. There's still going to be that. Avoidance, a full adoption by people. And that may or may not happen depending on what's subjective and objective there. Yeah. The changing times SEO strategies just need to evolve. What's interesting is clicks are down. We have 95% of my clients can accurately attribute organic revenue being up when we shift all of our attention back to pages that drive revenue. Pages that drive money. So who ca, like you said, who cares about those vanity clicks, like free email signature and all those things. If you can still make true business impact while investing a co, that's where the pivot at this present time is. And there's a lot of data to back that up. But if anyone wants to learn more, you can check us out. We are break the web dot agency. You can Google break the web and find us. And sometimes I share some things on LinkedIn. And I joined podcasts. Thank you so much for being here today, Jason, for the amazing episode of the Artificial Intelligence Podcast. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the Artificial Intelligence Podcast. Make sure to subscribe so you never miss another episode. We'll be back next Monday with more tips and strategies on how to leverage AI to grow your business and achieve better results. 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