Welcome to the Artificial Intelligence Podcast! We delve into the dynamic and emerging field of AI, guiding listeners through the intricacies of the tech world and the magic of AI. Our host, Jonathan Green, best-selling author, navigates these waters with ease, ensuring you're informed and ready to leverage AI in your own endeavors.
In this episode, we're thrilled to have Colin Sanburg, a seasoned expert in the fractional C-suite landscape, particularly as a fractional CFO. Colin brings his wisdom to the table, discussing the rise of AI and its implications for executive roles. With titles like CAIO, CIO, and CAO swirling around, the conversation turns to the role of AI in shaping the future of leadership positions and how companies scramble to incorporate AI at the behest of eager boards.
Colin defines the fractional space as a domain where high-level expertise is utilized on a part-time basis, especially as full-time availability and affordability become increasingly challenging. He distinguishes between consultants, who offer advice, and fractional executives, who roll up their sleeves and get to work, embedding themselves within the company's operations.
The podcast takes a deep dive into the nuances of being a fractional AIO versus an AI consultant or agency. Colin shares insights on the rapid evolution of AI and how staying up-to-date is a significant part of the job, highlighting the demand for constant adaptation and learning in this field.
Listeners will gain a clear understanding of how AI experts can differentiate themselves, the benefits of being a fractional executive, and the importance of staying current in an ever-changing landscape. Colin also shares his journey into the fractional world and the potential growth paths for similar roles.
Jonathan and Colin engage in a candid discussion about the fears and challenges of proclaiming oneself an AI expert and the catch-22 of expertise and recognition. They emphasize the importance of just starting, gaining experience, and becoming the go-to person in one's network for AI knowledge.
By the end of the episode, you'll be ready to embrace the AI revolution, armed with the knowledge to navigate these uncharted waters. Whether you're an AI novice or a seasoned tech enthusiast, this conversation will provide valuable perspectives and actionable advice.
Notable Quotes:
Connect with Colin Sandberg:
Website: finelevate.com
LinkedIn: Colin Sanburg
Connect with Jonathan Green
Welcome to the Artificial Intelligence Podcast! We delve into the dynamic and emerging field of AI, guiding listeners through the intricacies of the tech world and the magic of AI. Our host, Jonathan Green, best-selling author, navigates these waters with ease, ensuring you're informed and ready to leverage AI in your own endeavors.
In this episode, we're thrilled to have Colin Sanburg, a seasoned expert in the fractional C-suite landscape, particularly as a fractional CFO. Colin brings his wisdom to the table, discussing the rise of AI and its implications for executive roles. With titles like CAIO, CIO, and CAO swirling around, the conversation turns to the role of AI in shaping the future of leadership positions and how companies scramble to incorporate AI at the behest of eager boards.
Colin defines the fractional space as a domain where high-level expertise is utilized on a part-time basis, especially as full-time availability and affordability become increasingly challenging. He distinguishes between consultants, who offer advice, and fractional executives, who roll up their sleeves and get to work, embedding themselves within the company's operations.
The podcast takes a deep dive into the nuances of being a fractional AIO versus an AI consultant or agency. Colin shares insights on the rapid evolution of AI and how staying up-to-date is a significant part of the job, highlighting the demand for constant adaptation and learning in this field.
Listeners will gain a clear understanding of how AI experts can differentiate themselves, the benefits of being a fractional executive, and the importance of staying current in an ever-changing landscape. Colin also shares his journey into the fractional world and the potential growth paths for similar roles.
Jonathan and Colin engage in a candid discussion about the fears and challenges of proclaiming oneself an AI expert and the catch-22 of expertise and recognition. They emphasize the importance of just starting, gaining experience, and becoming the go-to person in one's network for AI knowledge.
By the end of the episode, you'll be ready to embrace the AI revolution, armed with the knowledge to navigate these uncharted waters. Whether you're an AI novice or a seasoned tech enthusiast, this conversation will provide valuable perspectives and actionable advice.
Notable Quotes:
Connect with Colin Sandberg:
Website: finelevate.com
LinkedIn: Colin Sanburg
Connect with Jonathan Green
Living your life one quarter mile at a time. The life of fractional sweet, sweet executive with today's amazing guest, Colin Sandberg. Now, coming from the world of AI, there's a whole new discussion. We haven't even determined what the terms are going to be. Is it going to be CAIO or CIO or CAO? And will it be fractional AIO or fractional CIO? I think that's too many letters, FCAIO. It's like five letters. It's not even a shortening anymore. But it's this brand new area. where people are trying to figure out, because every company is getting this directive. And I'm sure you've heard this. The board of directors goes, hey, we need AI. Input AI, you have 12 months to add AI. And the CEO goes, well, I don't know how to do that. Because there were no AI experts a year ago. And the biggest shift on LinkedIn right now is people adding AI stuff to their profiles. Like everyone sending AI consultant and expert. And now there's this new room of the fractional AO and no one really knows what that means. I'd love to talk to someone. I'm really excited to have you here. with your experience on the other side of being a different type of fractional C-suite executive. So if we could even start with, how did you kind of come into that and maybe even talk about definitions because what's the difference between a fractional and a consultant? So I think a lot of people need to start there. Yeah, no, I love that. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, so to your point, from my background, there's a lot of, I come from the space really of fractional CFO is kind of currently where I live. That's been around for probably the longest. And on the heels of that, I feel like there was a lot of growth in the fractional COO. And, you know, the way I look at the fractional, I think different people are probably going to have a different, you know, explanation, but from the way I look at it, the fractional space is really when you have a very high level need and you either don't need or can't afford to have it a hundred percent of the time, right. And, and in the AI space where things are so hot, it may be that you can't get it a hundred percent of the time, even if you wanted to pay for it and could pay for it. And so really that's where a lot of the, you know, fractional concept in my mind comes from is there's a small portion of the work that's very high level and that person's coming in, they're knocking out that one slice and then they're getting out of there and letting the day to day of the company, the boring stuff keep going without them. And how does that differentiate from a consultant? Like how does someone know, oh, I want a fractional CFO versus we need an accountant. Do we need a bookkeeper part-time or an accountant who just looks at the book once a month, where's the delineation? Yeah, no, that's also a great question. So I think the delineation in my mind is there's a difference between a consultant who's telling you what to do and someone who's fractional, who's actually in there doing it and in the, the consultant space, you know, consultants, they've got a deck that they've put together. They've got a plan that they've put together. It might be great and they might have all the right ideas, but for the most part, they're getting paid to generate ideas, not execute. And really in that fractional space, there's a different depth within the company that you're working. You're typically engaging directly with other employees beyond maybe just the CEO or the board who hired you, you're actually engaging as if you're an employee of the company, it's just happening in a smaller portion of time. So for a lot of people who are kind of thinking about, well, I'm an AI expert, do I want to be an AI agency, an AI consultant or fractional AIO? How can they kind of separate the three ideas in their mind? Cause when I think of agency, I think of we do it all outside. You say you want something done, we set up the whole systems, we run it for you. Like we set up an AI marketing campaign or set up the software and it just does what you want. And I think of as a consultant, like you said, as you tell them what to do. And it's almost like fractional AIO is kind of in between. Cause you're in house, but you're still, but you're also doing implementation. Is that a good way to divide it? Cause I don't want to be off track. Yeah, no, I think that's a perfect way to look at it. Yeah. And to that point, I think, you know, one of the big challenges with AI is obviously as things are changing, you know, practically on a daily basis. I think we're in that environment where I always describe it. You're in a rapid changing environment. You know, days feel like weeks and weeks feel like months, months feel like years, you know, that's kind of where AI is right now. And so I think the challenge with trying to be a consultant in that space, consultants typically have like a well-worn, you know, set of guidelines that practices for sales, here's the best practices for finance. Those things have been around for thousands of years. So the idea that someone can say, I've got the standard best practices for AI and as a consultant, I can just drop those at your doorstep and expect that you're gonna get good results. I think right now that might be unrealistic. I think to your earlier point, being an agency or being a fractional makes a lot more sense right now. because every day the first thing I do is spend an hour just going through a bunch of news feeds to see which software has released an update today, which things have changed, which process has changed, which thing is outdated. And it literally, at least an hour every day of just reading announcements and press releases because it's that fast of a change. What's very interesting in the market right now is that a lot of computer scientists and are flipping over to call themselves ad consultants. And my experience is that whenever I work with a developer, their solution is always a custom piece of software. Like, oh, I'll build a custom integration. And I think right now that's literally the worst thing that could happen to a company. Because whatever they build for you, by the time it's finished, will be obsolete. It's like that snake that's constantly eating its own tail. It'll take us six weeks to build it. By the time the six weeks is up, it'll be obsolete and we have to start over again. Which is why it seems like right now, especially, you really want to leave You don't want to do anything custom. I want everything offsite because every company is in an arms race. I don't want to accidentally join that AI race. So when I think of what I would do as a fractional AIO and what I teach my audience to do is that you go and you set up the machine and you have to come back every month to just teach the new updates to keep, to tweak the system. So you build the machine, but it's constantly changing, which kind of gives you the longevity in your position because It's impossible for anyone, unless it's their full-time job. And even with my full-time job, I can't keep up with every update. It's literally what I spend most of the week doing. And yet things slip past me. I follow probably 20 people that announce changes every week and stuff still slips by even with a thousand Google alerts a day, because there are so many changes, so many product launches and a lot of products are doing this thing right now where they're adding stealth features. So they'll add a new feature and not tell anyone, which is like It wasn't hard enough. So there's such a need just for that. And that's why I think actually bringing in someone fractional makes sense because as a fractional or as an agency, keeping up to date helps all of your clients the same. So you don't have to do the same work multiple times. So there is one benefit. When someone is thinking about the pricing structures, a lot of people, that's their first question is like, well, how do I charge it? Do I take what a CEO would charge per year and then charge a fraction of that? So... In the space right now, they're saying a fractional, a CAIO starts at 180,000, gets around 75,000 in bonuses. So they say $250,000 a year. Do I say, oh, well, I'm only gonna work 10% of the hour, so it'll pay me $25,000 a year. Is that the way the math works? Well, I think, you know, you, you hit on a point a minute ago where you've got a pooling of this experience. And so there's actually, you could argue that some of the work you're doing for other clients is actually beneficial to each client. And so there, to me, it's not as simple as saying, you know, take the total amount that I should make in a year and divide it by the number of hours. And that's how I charge. I think there's actually a higher value out there to tap into because as I'm working on client A, I'm actually benefiting client B indirectly by keeping up to your point. If this were a tried and true. you know, set of best practices, we would just, you know, hire a consultant. They drop off a 20 page, you know, document, here's how to get it done. And we'd go execute on it, but the nature of keeping up with it. So there needs to be some, some amount of compensation for all of the work and effort to staying up to date, as well as, you know, learning those best practices and implementing them very much on the fly. That's very interesting. So can you tell me a little bit about how you kind of got into the fractional CTO space? And I know you've also talked about some fractional COO space stuff. So you can talk a little bit about that as someone who worked in the space and who hired people in the space and kind of what you see the future of some of these other kind of fractional positions going. Yeah. yeah. So the fractional space for me, it really started with even simpler than that. So I've owned my own businesses for about 15 years. And one of the things you realize running small businesses is that the job that we normally think of as CEO, which is everyone's gonna put the highest title they can on their LinkedIn, on their business card. It's just the way we kind of brand ourselves. But in reality, a small business doesn't need a CEO. very often. The CEO in my mind is highest level relationships. It's casting a big vision. Sometimes it's kind of the rah within the team. But in the reality, most businesses, what they actually need is a COO more often. And the COO in my mind is more about the systems, the process, it's getting everything aligned, making sure that the resources are allocated according to what our goals are. Those are the tasks that a COO does. And then obviously a CFO, similarly, is really a high level specialist. You know, you don't have a CFO who's entering bills and, you know, signing checks typically, that's not a true CFO role. It doesn't mean that the person in a small company with that title isn't doing those things, but that's different than it being really the role. And so, you know, to your point, what really has happened to me over my career is first as a CEO, mastermind groups, learning from other and then ultimately sharing with other entrepreneurs, just you become that specialist in everyone's mind for whatever your particular thing is. We're talking a lot today about AI. And so a lot of the people listening are gonna be that specialist in their network for AI. And as I became that for finance and in my, um, you know, network and within friends, I became the guy when something was happening, like when the PPP program, uh, paycheck protection program, when that went through, you know, I was getting a million phone calls from friends that just were having to navigate this as a non-financial person. They, they looked at their phone and said, who do I know I can call right now? Who I know is going to be on top of this. And so really I think the fractional comes from that type of concept is that You are the, when somebody doesn't have someone on the team, they can escalate to, they look to you and they pick up their phone and reach out. And in a fast developing environment like AI, you know, that's a huge opportunity to really build a career. And one of the things that people always hit is the catch-22 of, I don't want to tell anyone I'm an AI specialist until I have someone pay me to be an AI specialist, but no one's going to hire me as an AI specialist if I don't tell anyone. And it's this, I always tell people that if you keep it a secret, no one's ever going to hire you. They're always afraid. People are afraid to change their LinkedIn profiles or build the website. What if someone sees it? Like, well, this is an interesting opportunity because if you're the only one that they know, If you're the only fractional AIO or the only AI expert someone knows, whatever someone else goes to them, hey, do you know someone who knows a lot about AI? They don't have any choice to say your name. It's kind of like if you're the only doctor in town, you don't have to be any good. You don't have to do any marketing. Right. You could be the only doctor. Hey, do you know a doctor? There's only one. It doesn't. You don't need a billboard. You don't need to advertise. You don't have to be in the yellow pages because you're the only game in town. And right now. That's what's an interesting opportunity because the demand is so huge. Everyone needs AI and it's an interesting time because no one really knows what that means. And it's like such an opportunity for people that can come in and really help these companies because there are difficult waters to navigate. So for people that are kind of worried about that, catch 22, that confidence, there's something like, oh, I'm afraid to ask people for money for my expertise. I don't want to tell them I'm an expert until someone paying me an expert. How can people just break through that barrier in your experience? Yeah, I think two things that I would recommend. Number one, realize that the people who are hiring you are less experienced than you, right? We are all on this path, on this journey. We're all at different places, okay? There is no question that there are financial minds out there that are much stronger than mine. But the people that I work with traditionally are gonna be behind me on that journey. And so I'm helping people, you know, you're kind of, you're that sherpa, right? If I'm going to climb a mountain, I'm gonna hire a sherpa. A qualified Sherpa is I don't, I can't tell you whether the Sherpa that I hired is the best Sherpa in the world or not. I know there are a lot better than me and hopefully a lot more experienced and can help keep me safe. So as we're on this path, you know, just remember that if you're acting as a Sherpa, even if it's your first time, if you have experience that the people who are hiring you don't have, they're going to have a really hard time understanding where you are in terms of qualification. Now, by, by no means are we suggesting you, you know, claim that you're something that you're not, right? We would never advocate that, but having the confidence to say, I do have experience in this. That's the first thing. The second thing is, you know, I talked about a minute ago, people should be compensated for what they're out there learning and what they're implementing. That's actually a two way street. Not only should you be compensated for it, but that's a big, the biggest way right now that you're going to get better. is by working in this space. And so if you're unwilling, exactly to your point, if you're unwilling to claim that you have this skillset, you're not going to be hired for it, and therefore you're missing out on opportunities to actually work more in the field and gain that experience and confidence that you will later feel more proud and it'll roll off your tongue a little easier. I think that's really good advice because right now there is nobody with five years of AI consulting experience or two years. Anyone who tells me they have like four years of chat GPT experience, I'm going to be very suspicious. Right? I know they're padding that resume because it hasn't been around. Only people who've only really been using it for a year. Anyone before that, just a beta tester, wasn't really ready for prime time. So any experience more than a year ago is almost irrelevant because it's like when I was in college, I was a master of MySpace. I'm not going to put that on my resume. Right? It's like really good at social media, friends during MySpace, people like that doesn't count anymore. Right? And that's how fast some technology moves. So I think that's the critical lesson is that if you're staying up to date, if you're putting an effort, even if you're just watching YouTube videos every day, and if using chat GPT every day, you're already a top 1% AI user. So few people. are using it every day, testing things, learning the new experiences. Every time I talk to someone, they're always amazed by things that I consider basic. And that's just because I'm an everyday user. We get that familiarity. It's like when I was learning to drive a car, it took me 13 steps before I would turn in the key. Check this mirror, check that mirror, the whole process. Now you just get in and turn the key and you're driving, you don't even think about it. And we sometimes forget. how much distance we've covered. And we're so worried about being the number one AI expert in the world, forgetting most people are still on square zero going, I don't know which one to use, I'm overwhelmed. I don't even know what all these tools mean. So I think that's very, very helpful to remind people that you just have to be a little bit ahead of them. And the only way to really learn how to swim is to get in the water, right? You can't read a book, it's not gonna work. And it's this. there's always gonna be this fear that you can't deliver for a client, like everyone always has that fear and it's such a normal thing. And I guess it's a version of imposter syndrome, right? Thinking, oh, what if I get a client and then I can't do the job? But I mean, they can always fire you. Like, that exists, right? It can always fail. You don't want that to happen, but they do have an exit strategy. So what would you say for someone who is kind of on the precipice, they're just about to jump off the fence to encourage them to just go for it? Yeah, I think you brought up a couple of amazing points there. Number one, there's no college degree in AI right now that anyone out there working has, right? Exactly to your point. We've really got a fast moving environment. And so, you know, I think if you look at the education landscape, you know, people are becoming fully educated on, on YouTube through Googling, right? Through following the right people who are influencers or experts in the area. And so, Exactly to your point, you know, we don't need a credential. We need somebody who's living and breathing this. And the other thing that I would suggest is that, you know, I know for me, from a financial standpoint, even when I went and got my executive MBA, I could run laps around the other people in terms of finance, even people who've been to big schools, you know, fancy work for big fancy fortune 500 companies. And the reason was application. And so I would suggest the same thing is that the experience you're going to gain from having a targeted purpose to what you're trying to do versus just generic research. is night and day. And you know, that's what I would suggest is to your point, even if let's say that, you know, someone's going to go out there and they're going to, you know, not have the confidence to just put AI expert, maybe they're going to say, look, I'm willing to do some work as kind of a contractor. You know, in my mind, a contractor is a little bit lower on the totem pole than maybe a consultant or certainly a fractional, but get some reps in, get some, some targeted behind the projects you're working on, rather than just, I'm gonna try and kind of keep, you know, a handle on what's going on out there, and you'll build that confidence. And so to your point, whatever the smallest, you know, step you can take, rip the bandaid off, get out there, do it, and you'll quickly build that confidence, and then when you speak about it, instead of just saying, hey, this is something I'm interested in, and here's how I educate myself, you can look back and say, here's what I did for this company, and here's what I did for this company, and here's what I think would fit for you. So that's part of what I would recommend. The other thing is, you know, the, in the technology space, the IT space, let's say, has obviously been around for decades. But IT people, from my experience, are the kings of Googling. Like, they're not walking in and sitting down and they know every answer. That's not how that space works. And why would it be that way in AI? So when a company comes to you with a targeted goal, then you are able to do research that's targeted toward that. You're able to Google, you're able to watch videos, you're able to look for technology that supports that goal. That's, that is the normal path for technology. It is not you walk in and the answers are already in your head. And the minute they ask a question, you're ready to answer them. When he gets that streamlined, we'll be consulting, right? It won't be fractional and it won't be working within the company. And I think it's important to remind people that your qualifications don't really matter. Like, I don't care when I hire someone now. It's can you do the job or not do the job? Not where you went to school. Like the traditional hiring model is, oh, let me look at your resume. And it's like, well, if I hire you to run social media and I've never met someone with a social media degree that was good at social media. Like I've never everyone I know who's got a huge social media account figured out on their own. It's always these two separate paths. And that's because four years ago. It was all about Vine. Vine doesn't even exist anymore, right? And that's how fast things move. And it's interesting now, I've seen a bunch of universities have launched like AI programs. Now you can get a degree in AI. And it's like, by the time you finish, at least the first three and a half years of it will be completely irrelevant with how fast things change. There are things that I was teaching two weeks ago that have now modified because of an update. So something from four years ago, like it's impossible. And we think that it makes such a big deal and you're exactly right. People don't... care that much about your qualifications anymore, especially in a technology space. There is this fear, oh, what if they ask me a question, I don't know the answer. And so it's well, my real skill, having been in this business for a long time, is the sniff test, is that I can look at different sales pages or technologies and go, there's something not right here. Like I was testing a couple of AI softwares a few weeks ago and I realized one of them was faking their AI algorithm. A regular person wouldn't be able to detect that. Just the ability to detect that is so valuable. to tell my client, don't buy this software, there's something not right here. We often think it's, we want the ability to tell them what to buy. I mean, telling people what not to buy is so much more valuable. Saying like, these things stay away from these three things, these three things have a problem. It narrows down the field and helps them a lot. So I think this is really awesome. I think that it helps people to start getting that perspective because it's a new space and that means sometimes it's the wild west and it's hard to find people that can always... back up what they're talking about. So it's exciting to bring in someone who's an expert in a parallel fractional industry. And I'd love to let people know where more they can find out about you, where they can connect with you online, and where they can really learn about some of the amazing things you're doing. Yeah, thanks. So we've got a website, www. I'm sure you'll have it in the show notes and then you can look me up on LinkedIn, uh, just Colin Sandberg. And yeah, I mean, what, what I'm doing in the, uh, CFO kind of space vaguely in the CFO space, um, is really strategic accounting. So we're helping companies typically small to midsize businesses. They don't know how to add value through their, uh, just entering, you know, credit card bills and reconciling monthly statements adds no value that doesn't actually help, you know, company owners or executives at all. And that's really where we come in. We believe that exactly like we were talking about earlier, a consultant from the outside, just giving you a playbook is not really value added. If you don't have anyone on the team who can implement it. And that's what we're doing. We're actually working within the day to day and week to week of companies. And when it comes time to, you know, add value and get better about how or how they're looking at cash flow. Those are all things that we can help with and we just do it on the fly as we get our jobs done. So guys, what I want to really point out is that a huge part of growth in my business is alliances. Because the more people you know in parallel who don't do exactly what you do, you don't only want AI friends. Because what happens if someone comes to me and they say, hey, do you know someone who's like a fractional CFO, someone who's good at that? Of course I'm going to say, oh, I know Colin. And the same thing, recommend backwards. So even if you feel nervous, like, oh, he's way too high level for me. Hey, his followers are where you can form those alliances and friendships with people that are starting out. that are kind of building their financial journey so you can start recommending each other because a lot of times companies will bring in one consultant and say, hey, do you know someone else who does this? This is why SEO agencies and website builders and social media agencies are all friends with each other because they can recommend each other and not compete with each other. So this is someone worth following. I'll definitely put a link to your website and the LinkedIn in the show notes. Thank you so much for being here, Colin. This was an amazing episode of the Artificial Intelligence Podcast. Thank you for being here. Yeah, thanks for having me, Jonathan.