Raving Referrals to Skyrocket Your Income with Brandon Barnum

Welcome to the Serve No Master Podcast! This podcast is aimed at helping you find ways to create new revenue streams or make money online without dealing with an underpaid or underappreciated job. Our host is best-selling author, Jonathan Green.

Today's guest is Brandon Barnum, his life took an unexpected turn when he found himself struggling to pay for both daycare and his mortgage. With the help of roommates, he managed to cover some of the costs, but soon found himself bouncing mortgage checks. Determined to make a change, Brandon decided to enter the mortgage business. Luckily, he had a mentor who taught him the secrets of what he now refers to as raving referrals. This newfound knowledge transformed his income from a meager $20,000 per year to an impressive $200,000 in just 18 months. Motivated by the responsibilities of being a single father, Brandon made the difficult decision to leave his previous job to be there for his son.

In this episode Brandon Barnum discovers the key strategies to becoming referable, partnering with others in your industry, and repackaging your expertise in a way that naturally spreads your message. From creating affiliate programs to the art of asking for referrals, Brandon shares valuable insights on turning happy clients into brand ambassadors. Join us as we explore the power of referrals and how they can fuel the growth of your business.

Notable Quotes

-  "It's not about you. It's about them. By you being referable, you become the solution to other people's challenges." - [Brandon Barnum]

-  "That's why you wanna listen for that expression of appreciation. And when you hear that referral trigger, that's the perfect time to ask for a referral because that person has just given you that feedback that they like what you do." - [Brandon Barnum]

-  "So we shift people's mindset from sales to service... If you're just focusing on surveys serving the client's needs and helping them get what they need and want, then it's not sales. It's just service." - [Brandon Barnum]

- "There are a certain type of person that will do whatever it takes. And that's something that is how you know someone's gonna be a great entrepreneur." - [Jonathan Green]

-    "We are trained to be very competitive and to see everyone as a competitor... if someone gets introduced to my audience, they could take my audience. Right? They could be cooler than me or better than me. But this is not real life. Real life isn't high school." - [Jonathan Green]

Connect with Brandon Barnum

Website: ravingreferrals.com

Connect with Jonathan Green

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Transcript

Jonathan Green: To get raving referrals and generate real customers for your business with today's special guest, Brandon Barnum.

Today's episode is brought to you by ProWritingAid. Every word I write needs to be perfect. One typo in an email, and I get dozens of replies pointing it out and saying, thought you're an author. That's why I trust ProWritingAid. I have every plug in and feature they offer to check my blog post and when I'm writing offline. No other tool even comes close. Score a lifetime license at servenomaster.com/proWritingaid.

Announcer: Are you tired of dealing with your boss? Do you feel underpaid and underappreciated? If you want to make it online, fire your boss and start living your retirement dreams now. Then you've come to the right place. Welcome to Serve No Master podcast where you'll learn how to open new revenue streams and make money while you sleep. Presented live from a tropical island in the South Pacific by best selling author Jonathan Green. Now here's your host.

Jonathan Green: Now this is a topic near and dear to my heart because I know how much people hate asking for referrals. It's like, the thing that people hate asking for the most. And it's very interesting that's the centerpiece of your business because people everyone I know who talks about referrals is very successful. You never hear someone who's like, oh, my business is terrible, but I teach referrals. So what I'm most interested is that you have this journey that is 1 people don't talk about. So a lot of people talk about single moms and work from home moms. And very rarely do people talk about work from home dads and single dads. And that's very near and dear to my heart because Even though I'm not a single dad, I'm a work from home dad.

And whenever I get invited to an event, like, oh, we have a work from home mom's conference. Do you wanna speak at it? I'm like, well, where's the work from home dad's conference? So I'd love to know a little bit about how your journeys are and kind of mixing, balancing being there for all those events for your family, but also, you know, you have to build a business. You just it creates that fire underneath you. So tell me how your journey started and really where your motivation came from.

Brandon Barnum: Yeah. Thanks, Jonathan. Appreciate you having me. Yeah. So, you know, for me, it really started because I was a single dad. I got custody of my son when he was 2 back in 1994. And at the time, I was only making $20 a year. I was working as a marketing director for an estate planning law firm, and all of a sudden, I Was responsible for this human being that I had to pay for feed and all the rest.

And all of a sudden, I couldn't pay for daycare as well as the mortgage. I bought a house. I had some roommates help him cover the cost, but I couldn't cover both. And I started bouncing my mortgage checks. I'm like, okay. I gotta make a change. So I ended up getting in the mortgage business, and, thankfully, I had somebody that taught me the art and science of what I now call raving referrals, And it 10 x ed my income over 18 months from $20 to 200,000 a year. So it was really that motivation because, Like you say, you know, being a single dad, for a while, I had to just bring my son home after I left that position.

I had to work from home with a, you know, 2 year old, 3 year old there by my side, and and it's tough. So I've been there. There's not you're right. I don't meet a lot of single dads or guys that have gone down that path, and them. I don't think about it because you just do what's called of you, but, it definitely was a challenge, and it led me to where I am now.

Jonathan Green: I think that's just something that's a difference maybe between how dads and almost talk about is that, like the reason people I record at night. Right? It's night at here, and people go, why do you shoot videos? And I'm like, because that's when the kids don't kick in the door. Like, even yesterday, I was shooting, and my daughter came in. She's not 3 yet. She's just under 3, and she just she comes in at 1 speed, full speed.

Brandon Barnum: Right.

Jonathan Green:

And blasted behind me was, like, trying to turn the TV on and watch, like, Barbie, and I was like, you came. I'm recording a video. I love but the thing is I never locked the door. Well, I have to, like, why don't you lock the like, because I never want the kids to be locked out. Like, I never wanna create that. So it's always this balance. You just kind of accept it, but It is this thing for me. I kinda went through a period of lower motivation in my business, and then when I started having kids, it really lit this fire under me because my wife doesn't work.

I gotta deliver. And the 1st phase is like, like, I gotta pay all the bills now. Like, there's always a doctor bill or an emergency or the school. Something's always happening, and then beyond that is then you get to that phase where, like, well, is there enough in case something happens to me? Right? Even if there's enough for now, but is there enough for 6 months, 2 years, 20 years from now? And you start to get these motivations, and there are a certain type of person that will do whatever it takes. And that's something that is how you know someone's gonna be a great entrepreneur. I recently was talking to someone. They were talking about, like, building online type of business. Like, well, actually, there's a business you can build to test to see if you're meant for this, which is you can go to every goodwill in town and scan everything with the Amazon app to see if there's a price disparity and there's an opportunity there.

And she was like, well, I don't have the time to do that. And I was like, yeah. Then didn't you know this is not the right thing for you? Because I would I've had to do things that I didn't wanna do. Right? It's like sometimes you have to do what you don't wanna do because, like, every day my kids want food. Like, every single day, they want food. Every day, they wanna wear clothes. Every day, they wanna have a roof over the house. You don't get to have, like, those little breaks.

Like, when you're working for yourself, you can have a ramen week. But not when you have kids, and there is this entrepreneur gene that not everyone has. Maybe 1 in 10 people have this desire to be in the arena, to do the trapeze without a net. So it's much scarier when you have a 2nd person on the journey with us. But I would love to hear really about your approach to referrals because people most people either to think it's really offensive to ask for a referral, or they try to do a lot of robotics with it. Like, you try to make it automated. So I wanna ask for referrals in a nonhuman way. Like, I want it to be an automated email that's in an automated video, and it kind of create this reverse effect. Like, here's something people do to me is they'll send me a video that I can hell. They've sent to a lot of other people because it's a Vimeo link, and I can see when the video is from and how many views it has. And if they don't see my name at the beginning, It really makes me mad, actually. It really is one of those things that flips my switch, because I'm like, you told me it was a personal video, but it's not.

Don't do that. And, actually, to I have had 1 person send me an actual personal video that was a personal video. I was surprised, because he said my name at the beginning, and he was talking to me specifically, and, like, it was, like and that's a good memory, because it's so rare for people to do that. So I feel like technology is actually making people worse. So I kinda love your take on that because you've been doing this for a very long time, It's a really big question, so just dive in however you feel right.

Brandon Barnum: Well, I there's 3 things that you said that I wanna touch on. Number 1, video. Video is fantastic, but you're right. Personalize a customized, and it doesn't take long. I teach people all the time. Like, one of the things that we teach is the appreciation exercise to just follow-up with and reignite the relationships you've had in the ships you've had in the past, and you can record a quick 32nd video on your phone, text it to him, and it's done. It doesn't take a lot of time. But let's talk about automating the ask, and then let's talk about the art of the ask, which is how to feel comfortable and how to help others feel comfortable.

Jonathan Green: Wait. I wanna dial into what you said because it's so important. Okay. Especially for guys. This is something different about the the men's world is that most men received between 0 and 1 compliments per year. Like, we get said and because I went through a near death experience recently, and I've started trying to, like, say nice things to everyone. And there's, like just you know, it it makes you and how long will it last? I don't know. Usually, like, you're nicer for a few months, and you go back to who you are.

But people really especially men. Women get a like, my wife gets way more compliments than me. Right? Like, when is the last time someone bought you a drink? Right? Like, it's so rare for a man. People people like, how do you become friends with a billionaire? I'm like, oh, do anything you would do for a pretty lady, and they're shocked because it's like, no one ever buys them a drink. No one ever says something nice that's not about their money, and no one ever said anything meaningful. So just that one thing Sure. Is like, Just if you said to someone, like, oh, you paid me $50,000 for a project. Thought it was really cool to work together.

Thanks. Most guys are like, woah. Because the barrier for compliments for us is so low because it's so rare. Whereas women get told they're beautiful all the time, and so they start to get used to it. It loses its specialness.

Brandon Barnum: Right.

Jonathan Green: But I have this friend, and I'll never forget this. She was a Formula one model, and we're out 1 night in London. She was, that guy just bought me a drink. Can you believe people are so nice here? And I was like, woah. That's what everyone which is was like when you buy a lady a drink. She was like, I had to talk to him for 30 minutes because he bought me a drink. How nice is that? And I was like, when you're I said 3 more months in London, that's gonna go away, but it was, like, that's how men do react to confidence because we get them so rarely. So I love that you said that.

I know I cut you off, but it was, like, such an important thing that we some kind of slang, which is like it's really so powerful because it's so rare. Most of the time, we wanna create this aloof persona, and then we're so tough that we're never nice to each other. So I really love that you said that that it doesn't have to be a 30 minute thing. A 32nd video, also, it's better. Like when I get a video and it says, like, 27 minutes, I go, oh, I'm watching this later. It's too long. 30 seconds is nice and tight. Do it from your phone.
I love it. What's the next step? You're talking about automation, some of the problems with that.

Brandon Barnum: Well, let's go and let's actually do the appreciation exercise right now with your audience. Okay. And then we'll come back to automating the ask or the art of the ask. So here's the appreciation exercise. It literally is a matter of looking at the contacts in your phone, thinking about who haven't you connected with in a while that you wanna stimulate a relationship with and start doing more business with, if you wanna make it professional. Although, like you said, you can just keep it personal. So whether you wanna apply this to your personal life, to maybe some friends you haven't talked to in a long time, or into your professional life. It goes like this.

Look in your phone. Look in your contacts. Make a list of 5 to 10 people that you should be reaching out to that You know you haven't for a long time you wanna reconnect with. And just do this. Say this. Someone was just asking me who I appreciate and I thought of you. It can be as simple as that. It'll stimulate a conversation.

Now if you have something more specific you wanna send to them, then do it. Right? Somebody was just asking me who I respect most, and you came to to mind. You were at the top of my list. Right? Or I just wanted to let you know that I'm thinking about you, and I'd love to reconnect. Anything like that is just an expression of appreciation to your point. Right. A lot of people don't receive that, and when you start with a give of I was thinking about you and you're somebody I care about and would like to connect with, Then they're gonna respond, and now you're back in a relationship.

Jonathan Green: There's this part of us that's, like, afraid that it will sound like a pitch. Right? That's like, oh, they're gonna think I wanna sell them something. Right? There's and it stops us because we get so caught up in the and this is important. They get we get so caught up in the what are they gonna respond to that we've because we've forgotten how to compliment. So now most of the time, we say something nice to someone. Here's what you say. You say, wow, you look nice today. And then you go like this.

Put your hands on your ear waiting for them to say something nice back to you. And it's like, well, that's not a compliment. That's a true that's like a trap. Kind of like an obligation. You give them something. And it took me a long time in my single days to learn that you don't leave that window there because that's an uncomfortable window, especially if you're a regular I'm an average looking guy, so I don't wanna leave the opportunity for someone to tell me I have nice eyes because that's I know what that means. It means everything else is terrible. So very important to let go of their response.

It doesn't matter. I learned this lesson. When I was a kid, my parents bought my sister a car, or they gave her their old car, and then she sold it because she wanted the money. And I was like, woah. My parents were like, they had to learn a lesson. A gift is a gift. To really give it to someone. They're gonna do whatever they need to do with it.

And it made sense she was living in New York where you don't need a car. Right? So it's Sometimes we get so caught up, like, when we give a gift and we want them to open in front of us. We wanna see the music. Like, don't you love using that blender? Like, yeah, I love my 7th blender. Right? We to forget what a gift really is, which is a gift is you could do whatever you want with it, and I'm not gonna be tied to how you treat it. It's about me, the act of giving. So I really love what you're saying, which is an opportunity to just give appreciation and not worry about how they respond. Like, if someone misinterprets, which I've had happen.

I've had sometimes people really misinterpret something I said, and you can't control that. You have to kind of disconnect for that because 99% of people or 98% of people are gonna be like, wow. No one ever says anything nice to me, and it's everything's warm. I really love your structure because it kind of removes most of that. I'm about and the next message will be my pitch. And the next message will be to let you know I joined a re an MLM recently because that's what we're all afraid of hearing in the 2nd message. Sure. Like, that's what I'm afraid of.

It's like, oh, no. What did you join? Is it what's worse than MLM or a cult? But I love that you have that structure, and we just send it out there without the worry of their response because that's not the important part. The important part is just saying the thing of of a kindness.

Brandon Barnum: Yeah. And, Jonathan, I'd say that a lot of people are too concerned about what other people are thinking. Like, literally just give to give. Share appreciation because you appreciate them with no agenda. Now if you end up starting a conversation and it leads to a meeting or a connection And you wanna develop business out of it, fantastic. Right? But, literally, you have to have no attachment to the outcome. Your only objective here is to share the love, is to give, is to raise the vibe. And when you do that, what you're gonna find is you're gonna rekindle some relationships that maybe you haven't talked to in a while.

One of the things that we teach at h o a dot com and and through my raving referrals book is the referral partner blueprint, And this is all about partnering with people who already serve your ideal clients and are in complimentary businesses. This. Right? So how do we build relationships and partnerships with others that are already serving your clients where you can be the answer to the challenge their their clients and customers face.

Jonathan Green: So there's this mindset that's kind of an older mindset, which is you eat what you sale that when you're in, like it's a very aggressive we talk about every name for, like, a customer is like a different type of animal, like a kind of buffalo or a whale or a big fish, like and There's this feeling and this something I dealt with in my business that every single other author is my enemy, that someone is either reading my book or not reading my book. And It took me a long time to realize, and your background's a great example of that as most people read more than 1 business book. Like, you very rarely meet the person that goes, I read 1 business book and had everything I needed to know, and I'm not gonna ever read another one. But I used to think that way because we are trained to be very competitive and to see everyone as a competitor to think, oh, if someone gets introduced to my audience, they could take my audience. Right? They could be cooler than me or better than me. And part of it is, like, we've all had that experience in high school where someone's cooler than you, but this is not real life isn't like that. Real life isn't high school. Right? But we sometimes have these older fears that if I kind of do this thing.

It's risky for me. We're so worried about that or seeing other people as competitors. It took me a really long time. I wish it hadn't taken me so long to realize that Most of my competitors are the people that make the best friends because they know how I feel. They know what it's like, and it's like, wow. We've locked out the only people people because while I live in a small, in the middle of nowhere, nobody understands what I do. Nobody has any of the slightest understanding of the things you go through. Like, as entrepreneurs, not to go down a sidetrack.

We deal with specific issue. Like, when you work home alone, you're alone all the time, which opens the door to depression. Entrepreneurial depression is very common because you're like, well, I have no one to talk to something. It's the same thing that happens to a lot of women when they have their 1st kid. They're at home. That's why they start to get really freaked out because I'm used to having adults to talk to on 9, and that's gone. So the only people who are really going to understand how you feel are the people who do what you do or who are in very close industries. So overcoming that fear or that, like, barrier can be a really big opportunity because most people go to more than 1 business.

Most people read more than 1 book. Most people have more than 1 problem. So I love starting to think about the people who we're so busy thinking of as enemies. I'm starting to think of them, oh, these could actually be the people that would be the best allies for me and have the best audience, and it's not my audience or their audience. We can both serve them in different ways because there's no business where every single person who walks in the door becomes a customer. Like, oh, I have a 100% conversion rate of lead to customer. And it's like, no. Right? It's maybe 1 out of 10 or 2 out of 10.
The other 8 people still need the help. Maybe I'm just not the right fit.

Brandon Barnum: Yeah. And you should be looking at how do you serve those people. Right? How do you really help them get what they need? If it's not through your services, Maybe it's through others that you can partner with, and I love that you help people get into affiliate programs, for example. Right? I have a dental consulting company in addition to h o a dot with other companies that serve the dental industry. And when we bring on a prospect or a client, we're looking at ways to solve their problems, period. End of story. Right? And we don't do everything. We do coaching and consulting.

So we bring in experts that do the financial, the compliance, the software management, all of the other stuff. And by partnering with them, you know, we have partners that serve 20,000 dentists, a 100,000 dentists. And my mentor taught me 1 plus 1 equals 11. Right? The power of partnerships, We really work at adding as much value as possible to the same perfect prospect, and you work together to accomplish it. Everyone wins.

Jonathan Green: Okay. So we kinda have the 1st step of the process, which is to look for people that their audience and your audience would make sense kind of mingling. There's a lot of crossover. You have a good Venn diagram. What's the 2nd step or next step in the process?

Brandon Barnum: Well, we started talking about automating the ask and the art of the ask. So let's talk about automating the house. Now you mentioned some digital things. We absolutely believe that you should be integrating a request for referrals into your invoices, your email signature, right, whether it says the best gift you can give me is a referral. One of the things that we teach people is to really Integrate that into your conversation. We'll teach the art of the ask in just a second. But in automating the ask, if you have a physical, you know, brick and mortar business, then you can create, like, a referral kit like this one that we did here. Right? Let me see.

There we go. And this way, you've literally got something to give to your clients, your patients, your guests when they come into your place of business So they can pass it on to other people, so that they can literally share the gift of you to the people that they're serving. That's automating the ask. Put that in a place where everyone can see, and make sure that every prospect and client and customer that comes through your sales funnel receives that information and knows that either you love and appreciate referrals or that there's an incentive. Some people actually create an affiliate program, and that's we call it referral rewards on our end. How do you turn your happy clients and customers into brand ambassadors for your business. Well, you can incentivize them and actually pay them a portion of the revenue or a bounty, And then you can also give them free services, free gifts, whatever it is that you provide. So that's automating the ask.

Make sure that you have that built into your system, because Ivan Meisner, who started BNI, says 98% of businesses rely on referrals, yet only 3% have a system in place. So put a system in place, and it'll increase your referrals.

Jonathan Green: I think that's a really big deal because I all of my ghostwriting clients come through referral, and I don't tell anyone. You can go to my website. Doesn't tell you I'm a ghostwriter. There's no information. The starting email is always, hey. I heard you do ghostwriting, or do you still ghostwrite? That's the 1st email. I was like, do you even do this service? Because I keep the gate that high. I'm like, yeah, I just have so many referrals coming, because I'm so good at it, which is obviously not the best strategy.

Right? But it's just It is that thing where you want to think so much about delivering the service, but you forget to ask for it. But If people have a great experience, they're gonna share it. Right? Because they're gonna ask, like, oh, do you know someone who does x? And if you're the only one they know, then that's when it comes up. But sometimes people do think, oh, I don't wanna, like, bother that person. Right? I don't wanna send them a referral because they might be annoyed. There's a lot of people to think a referral will annoy you, so you definitely wanna at least let people know. No. I I love that.

Put in your signature. Put it on your invoice. Those are very interesting places. I'm definitely gonna make that change right after this call, but it is this thing where we think asking for the referral is offensive. We think it's like an offensive ask. We think it's asking for something really personal. When, actually, mostly, if you just let people know I'm open to referrals, they'll go, oh, I thought sending you a referral would be rude. I thought you don't want more clients.

Because I as part of my sales process Yeah. I'm very aloof. Right, I do because then people go, oh, wow. He must be so good because he's so aloof. Right? Like, you're so distant. Because I only take 3 clients a year, so I only need 3 leads to come in. Usually, 5 people reach out about ghostwriting on 3. It fills out my year, and I found that if you act like a little bit to turn up the dial a little bit on the attitude.

People go, oh my gosh. He must be amazing because he's not that friendly. I say, you know, that's what people want. That's who you wanna work with as an artist. They go, wanna work with the writer who's a little bit has an attitude like, oh, I only write bestsellers. You know? How do you know? I read well, I haven't written a non bestseller ad in the last 300 books. People hear that, like, oh my gosh. So you create the a little bit of that character, but then afterwards, people go, oh, if I tend to a referral, he'll be so annoyed.

So I do need to lower that 2nd barrier once they've kind of come in the door, and then, you know, you're kind of people wanna work with it's like when people wanna work with a rock star, you don't want the rock star wearing normal clothes. You want them to dress up in their fancy outfit. You want a kiss wearing the makeup at your birthday party. So there is that balance, and I think this is a very interesting place to be to think it's not that you're begging for a referral. 1st phase is letting people know they're allowed to do referrals because some people are worried. Oh, if I send you too many customers, you're gonna be annoyed. And I have sent customers who quit off knowing.

Brandon Barnum: You couldn't tee me up any better, Jonathan, for the art of the ask. Okay? Because here's the reality. People. You're right. They think all kinds of things that aren't necessarily true. And one of the things that they think is you're too busy and you don't want more business. Well, if that's not the case, you need to tell them. So in the art of the ask, it's a way to help everybody feel comfortable for you to feel comfortable asking for referrals and for your client or cost customer to feel comfortable hearing that ask.

And it goes like this. There's 3 steps. Number 1 is setting the stage. Number 2 is listening for the referral triggers, and number 3 is ASK to GET. So let's unpack that. First setting the stage. When you first have a new client or customer that decides to use your service before you let them walk out the door or in that initial client conversation, whether they've said they've decided to hire you, and you've just walked through. Great.

Here's what's gonna happen next. Now before you let them leave, You wanna say, before you leave, would it be okay if I ask you for a favor? Now most people when you ask them for a favor, they're gonna say 1 of 2 things, either absolutely or maybe tell me more. Right? So maybe. Tell me more, Jonathan. Well, I get a lot of my business by referral, and we're really looking to bring on another 5 clients, 10 clients, whatever is true for your business. This. Right? And because I work by referral, I'm able to keep my cost down because I don't spend a lot of money on marketing. So here's my request.

Once I've wowed you with my service, would it be okay if I ask you for referrals down the road at a later date? K. What have you just done? You've set the stage by saying, I'm gonna wow you with what I do. I'm gonna blow you away. You're gonna be impressed, excited, grateful for the service that I deliver to you. Okay? Now once you once I've done that, Would it be okay if I ask you for referrals at a later date? Are you putting them on the spot right now? Nope. Nope. You're basically doubling down on your surface statement saying, I'm gonna do a great job for you. And when I do, would it be okay if I ask for referrals? A 100% of people will say yes to that.

So that's step 1, setting the stage. Now you're in phase 2, listening for the referral triggers, and the referral triggers are essentially expressions of appreciation. It might be, wow, Jonathan. This looks so great, or, man, I can't believe you made me sound like a a genius. Right? Whatever that expression of appreciation. It could be, thank you, man. You've helped me lose so much weight, make so much money. Whatever that is for your business, That's the referral trigger.

So once you hear that, now it's time to go into phase 3, a s k to g e t, and you wanna say something like, I'm so glad to hear that. I'm so glad to hear that you love what we did. Remember when we first started working together, I told you I was gonna wow you with our service, and I'm thrilled to hear that you're happy with the result that we've given you. So Now you remember at the beginning, I said that I would ask you for referrals at a later date. So now that you've experienced the power of what we do. Now that you see the difference that it makes, we're looking to bring on a few clients that are facing the same challenge that you have, Right? That you are. And I wanna make them famous, rich, sexy, thin, whatever that benefit is, just like we did with you. So do you know any? And then it's really important that you specify exactly who you're looking for. Maybe you only work with business owners doing 5 to $10,000,000 in revenue. Describe that perfect prospect, and you'll be amazed how many referrals that you get.

Jonathan Green: So do the hard ask where you're like, can you tell me 3 people right now? Because I've heard different versions of this. So I'm someone who's a big believer in farming. Like, I'm all about positioning, which is, like, I just wanna plant that seed. I get referrals a lot where I don't remember the person sending the referral. I have memory issues. I had there's certain I've just have some memory holes, and someone would call me and be like, oh, I loved working with you 3 years ago. I'm like, oh, boy. I don't remember you at all.

I have to go look at the files because I just have memory issues, which I work with. I still remember a lot of stuff. So do you kind of do the seed planting thing, which is you let them know you're looking for referrals or to do the hard press and like because I've seen the version where you're like, can you tell me 3 people that you think would be a good fit right now? And I kind of hate that one because it's so aggressive. But the farming one, because I've seen where people send a referral 3 years, 5 years, 6 years later. That's why I have just a steady flow is because you plant the seed with excellent service. And then that wow is there. Right? And they remember because then they go, especially if you're in a unique business. Like, most people don't know 3 ghost writers.

Right? Most people know 1 or 0, so it's not a company. But they might know 5 people in insurance or 5 people that sell cars. So it might be you might need to be slightly more proactive. So what's the right way to kind of push yourself to the top of the referral hype or kind of be in that position without being overly aggressive, without being, like, crossing the line and wherever that line is.

Brandon Barnum: Well, in the art of the ask, you're seeding that in the very first conversation. Right? You're not putting them on the spot so they don't feel uncomfortable right now. You're not saying right it now. Right? You're really saying, I'm gonna wow you with the service, and then later on, if you ever meet somebody that's facing the same challenge and could use my services. I'd love to help them. Now once you hear the referral trigger and you say I'm so glad you feel that way, You can either say now or in the future. What's comfortable for them is in the future. If you ever hear of anyone that is looking to write a book and wants a great ghost writer, I would love to do that for them just like I did for you.

So it's not always about now. You are planting the seeds always. Right? So I think the way that you said it was great. And with the art of the ask, by asking upfront and putting that into their mind because most people never ask. And by setting that stage and saying, look, I'm gonna wow you with my service. And if you ever run into somebody that needs my service that would be a fit for them. I'd love to help them. And it's really here's the key.

It's not about you. It's about them. By you being referable, you become the solution to other people's challenges. When you partner with other business owners and other professionals, they have clients coming to them, and those clients mention challenges that they have. You wanna be the resource, the solution that they're able to give to solve their client's challenges. When you do that and when you prepackage yourself in a way where they can easily spread the word about you and your business, Like, maybe it's a book. Right? For you, if you ghost ghost write books for people, you could literally have somebody give a book that you've go ghost written. And when they say, man, how did you write that book? They can say, let me let you in on a little secret, And then they introduce Jonathan Green. Ladies and gentlemen, the man behind the scenes.

Jonathan Green: Yeah. There's this interesting thing that happens for me that's very specific to what I do, which is clients who do not wanna do a referral while we're working on the project because they there's this fear of 1 client at a time, which is fine. They're like, I don't want you to start with another client and then not finish my like, there's that thing. Right? So I always have to wait until the end until it's actually finished and published even then, and then they'll sometimes send in a whole bunch of people. Like, 3 or 4 or 4 is coming at once because they're, like, out of that phase because, like, oh, I don't want Jonathan distracted. So there is this thing that's slightly unique to when you're a little bit more of a one off provider that it puts it there. But what I like is that at the beginning saying, listen. I'm gonna blow your mind.

I'm gonna wow you, and I'll ask for a later. Kind of puts 2 things in place for you, 2 motivators, which is the first is you have to do a really good job now because you said you would. Right? And it kind of creates a motivation for you. And the second thing it does is it not only does it open the door for you to ask for referrals, it kinda puts a pressure on you because you said you were gonna do it. So you actually because that fear you have of asking it through further referral, well, now there's a pressure behind you because you said you were gonna do it. So if you don't do it, that's even weirder because Zen. It's gonna make the person go, why didn't he ask me for referrals? Because he said he was going to. Doesn't like me.

He thinks I have bad times. Because we all have the client. We go, this person. I definitely don't wanna send any referrals because this client is not who I wanna work with again. Right? We every once in a while. And then so they'll actually think that unless you ask them for referrals. So it creates a very interesting pressure behind yourself to be a do a better job, and now they're gonna talk about you and to actually ask for the furl later because their feelings will actually be hurt if you don't for the referral.

Brandon Barnum: Right? Yeah. Huge. Absolutely. And and I think you've said it exactly right. Right? If you have a service based business where capacity is a concern, Then people aren't gonna wanna refer you while you're in that state. You have to understand that about your business. Right? So you get that, Jonathan, and you understand you can plant the seeds at the beginning, but you don't wanna ask until it's complete till you really delivered that wow experience to your clients customers, and once you do, then they should be telling the world about you. And if you have an affiliate program or what I call referral rewards that you offer.

You can say, look. Not only am I thrilled that you got the result that you wanted, but how'd you like to add a side hustle to your business because I'm looking for promotional partners. I'm looking for people that have experienced my service firsthand that know the difference that I make and will be out there scouting for business with me. And when you bring people to me, then I'll be happy to pay you or, you know, whatever that is for you. Like, we literally are doing vacation vouchers right now, where we're giving somebody a 6 night stay at a Mexican resort, and the those vouchers cost us about $40 each, but the person receiving it has 6 nights at a luxury resort paid for. So they can do things that don't cost you a lot of money, but have that wow experience for your referral partners as well.

Jonathan Green: Yeah. There's just this for me, it's like if someone sent me too many, it'll be such an issue because I don't wanna across a certain scaling threshold. Like, my wife and I it's just such an interesting place to be, and we talk about, like, should I go from 3 to 6? But, like, That's a huge conversation we have because it's wouldn't be a massive change to our lifestyle. Not in an it would be a massive change income wise, which would be great, but also it's like a massive time change because there's a lot that goes into what I do and doing it excellently. So it is like that's the conversation we have, which is like, oh, should we go from 3 to 6 people a year, which is very different than most businesses. I know most businesses are like, yeah. We want 10 a month, 21, 30 months. So I have a unique situation, which is why the other challenge is is, like, Sometimes you think, oh, then this person will think the person referred that me to them also got a reward.

Right? They start to I worry about that thought, which is like, oh, did the last person get 10%? Like, and you sometimes, if you offer a reward that's too low, like, it's better to ask someone to do something as a favor than offer them, like, a dollar an hour. Right? Because then they Agreed. Once you put a transaction, like, you have to be careful that if you your offer is too low. So you have to offer something that's quite high, and or that will make it feel like, oh, it's actually a value. Right? Because sometimes you're like, oh, yeah. If you send me a 1000 customers, I'll give you a t shirt. I'm like, well, you've all you've done is put a bad taste in my mouth because I I'm a very emotional person. Like, something like, if I get upset by something or it hurts my feelings, like, I overreact.

It doesn't happen very often, but when it does and that's one of the things that's like, I would rather you just give me the shirt, by the way. Like, let's be honest. I know what a shirt cost. Like, $3 for you to make it. And I'll send if you give me a good feeling, I'll send the referrals. Like, it's amazing how many people will send a ton of referrals if you're just nice to them. Like, if you take them out to dinner like, I had a bot one of my best bosses would just take me out to ice cream for our meetings, and I was like, I loved it. Like, it was a really and it was, my what's this paying? Like, $4 in in event.

I'm not buying a giant buy a giant thing ice cream, but sometimes all it takes is just being kind to the person, just kinda giving them a good experience, and then exactly calibrating, do am I in a business where I need a massive skin? Because if people get really excited by the referral, and I've had that before, they start sending a ton in. So you just have to kind of figure out what you want from from your business, what you want from life, and it's not my main business. It's just a side of my business, because I just sometimes you just like getting paid upfront. Like, sometimes you just love getting paid in advance for something. To great feeling. Our huge wire transfer feels so good, but it's that balance. And some there's this fear though that if I say, oh, I reward my and they're gonna think, oh, that's why someone referred me to me. And then it can put a negative spin on, especially because there are some negative connotations with phrases like affiliate marketing because of, like, cryptocurrency and casino affiliate marketing, which is a completely different world, but they just happen to use the same terms.

So how can someone who goes, yeah. I wanna ask for the referral, and I do wanna reward people, but I don't wanna under reward them to the point where they're, like, annoyed. And I don't wanna over reward them to the point where it actually affects my business or the quality of the service. So how can someone basically calibrate?

Brandon Barnum: Yeah. Well, I think first, it's important to understand that about half of people feel comfortable being paid or being, incentivized for referring. The other half don't want money or prices or any kind of rewards you're gonna give them. And it really comes down to personality styles. Right? So You just need to understand that when you're talking to people, and the reality is you're gonna customize your conversations based on the person that you're talking to And just get a sense for it. Right? Just to help understand. And as far as creating what the actual reward is, it it differs based on the industry that you're in. Some industries, they can't give a reward at all, but then there's industries like real estate where if you if you're a realtor and you refer a client to another realtor in a different state, you're actually gonna get paid 25% of that realtor's income, their commission that they earn. That's standard practice in their industry. So you just have to be thoughtful, considerate, and then create something that's appropriate, applicable, and enticing for your industry.

Jonathan Green: Yeah. It's interesting you mentioned half of people don't wanna receive anything, because there are people who they think money solely is it, and in a way, it does. Like, whenever I see someone reviewing a product, they go, I'm gonna fill it, but it doesn't affect my review. It's like, but it's the reason you made the video. Like, it is it they sent me a free thing, but it doesn't affect my review. Yes. It did. It's impossible for it not to.
Right? Every study on that show is that when you get free stuff, it changes how you feel about people. You're way more likely to do a positive view over something free, because you know what I mean? Even if you're trying to control yourself. So it is there is a purity that a lot of people think, and I guess it's, yeah, it's a question if it's industry or a question if you need to do it. Like, I I think, just opening the door. For most people, just opening the door as phase one is saying, letting people know, yeah, I love referrals. It allows me to meet people because you're a great customer. I wanna meet people like you. It opens up such a great window that maybe you just do that first.

And before you start going, I have to build a really complicated rewards program and a system to where because for many people, it's soles it because they go, I don't want to get into the page for referral business because then It is an ethical question it for someone, and let's just remove that. This is unless the only reason I mean, as an affiliate, My job is to not refer things. A lot of people think, oh, job is to refer. Like, no. My job is to not refer things that don't work. My job is to actually go through so many so many requests. Right? And just say no, no, no, and to be able to tell what's bad when my customers wouldn't be able to tell. Some things have a great sales page, but I know the product doesn't work or there's a piece missing.

And that's really what my job is. And for someone who doesn't do it that much, they don't see it that way. They go, oh, you're just trying to pay me to refer your thing. And so I actually think, especially if you're starting out, it's easier to start out without doing that system. Most people respond to that. I refer people all the time. Sometimes I do because of what I do. I'll ask for a ref be like, oh, do you do a referral fee? Do you do a get because I wanna know because that's my business, but most people aren't me.

Right? Most people don't do that. Of all the people who've ever sent me, 1 person's asked about it. Right? And Yeah. Of course, we work something out because that's their business model. So it's not very often that it makes a difference. People go, well, you did an amazing job for me, but I'm not gonna tell anyone unless you pay more. Like, that's not how people think. So I think that people who are, like, trying to figure it out, unless it's an industry standard and, you know, for certain things, there are industry standards for my industry as well.

For certain type of referral, the standard is 10 or 20% depending exactly on the structure of it, where they what they're recommended to and bringing to you that you do have to do that part. But for some things, for people that aren't in my industry that are just a happy customer, like,

Brandon Barnum: They don't need that. None of them. The reality is it depends on your industry. Right? For somebody like you that's only taken on 3 clients a year, A referral reward system isn't needed and doesn't make sense. Right? For people that are in a service based business may not make sense. I run a technology platform. I run h o a dot com. We have a 2 tier affiliate plan.

Right? So we pay 20% of anything that somebody pays into us directly from your referral, and then we also have a 2nd tier 10%. The reason we do that is because somebody will introduce us to an influencer or an enterprise, And then that company is gonna earn 20% off activating their community, but the person who brought that opportunity gets 10%. Case in point Wednesday, I have 2 different meetings with 2 different CEOs. One of them is a company that everyone listening already knows the name of, so I'm not gonna to say it, but they have 4,500,000 clients, customers, paying members that pay them anywhere from 30 to $100 per month. Right. So with them, offering them a 2 tier program means that their people are gonna either make or save because sometimes instead of paying that 1st tier, we'll offer it as a savings to the company. Like, the other meeting is a national franchisor, and so they're gonna earn 20%, or I'm gonna give the guy the option. And you can either earn 20%, or I'll give all of your franchisees a 20% discount, whichever you choose.

However, that franchisor is still gonna earn 10% as those franchisees then activate their referral networks and bring people into our company. So It really depends on the situation. I come from a different perspective because with HOA .com, there's 8,000,000 professionals who serve homeowners in the United States alone, so that's our target market. It's a big market, and we want referral champions out there scouting for clients for us.

Jonathan Green: Yeah. So that's exactly it is in different sectors of my business. Like, absolutely, there's an expectation. There's a standardness of it. But for knowing what that is is important. You know your industry, and you know some type of customers I know, they definitely expect a referral commission. Some people I work with, and I make sure they're getting referral commission because their set of eyes to bring me more good projects. So it's very interesting to see that there's different parts of the business.

So it's like, yeah, sometimes, especially for a scale business or large business, absolutely. It makes sense at large scale, and then for people that are figuring out. Because a lot of people, a lot of my listeners are like in the coaching space, and they're like, well, it feels a little bit dirty. But the other thing I think about I often say this too because a lot of people like they're like, oh, I don't wanna do paid advertising. This and that. Like, well, what if you discover the cure for something? And you're shouldn't you tell everyone? Like, why would you keep that a secret? If your product is really good, you need to get the word out there because, like, if you cure something, you have an obligation to spread the word. Right? You're actually a monster if you keep it a secret. Like, oh, yeah.

I cure that disease. I just didn't tell anyone. You what? Like, you know what I mean? Like, that would be such a shocking thing, so we sometimes have to remember that if you're good at what you do, and this is so important, then you should tell everyone. If your product is good, if you believe in your product, and whatever the product is. That's the thing. When people say sales is really hard, I'm like, yeah. It's hard if the product is not good. If the product is good, it's so much easier.

Like, whenever you watch one of those infomercials, every once in a while, there's one that you're like, oh, yeah. That seems awesome because it just works, and you can note those are ones that do really, really well. Right? And sometimes it's like they have to convince you that you have the problem. Like, how many juicers do I need to own? So it's these 2 different spectrum, but if the product is great, what if you do if you really think what you do is good. Because every once in a while, like, I know you this happens. It happens to me. Sometimes you're working on a project with someone, and I. My job as a writer is to make people likable.

That's the most important thing, and a lot of people who are very successful are unlikable. The reason they're successful is because they're not very personal. Right? They're very direct. They're very good running an organization, but they they don't make a lot of friends because that's not what your job is. Right? Your job as CEO is to direct things, not to be friends with everyone on the ship. The captain's friends with no one. Every once in a while, I'll get to someone, and we'll get to that moment where I'm like, I asked the perfect question. I find that moment.

I go, this is gonna be whole book is about, because now everyone's gonna love you because it all makes sense. It all comes together. And you have that moment where you just remember, oh, yeah. I'm really good at this. It doesn't matter how many of my competitors are out there, how many other people they talk to. Like, that's the thing that I can do that other people don't find. I find that thing that's the magic moment. And when you have those moments, you have to remember this is why I wanna work with many people as possible.

Right? Because other people aren't as good as me, because I think I can really make a difference. So the more you believe yourself, the more it kind of is all connected. It's hard to ask for a referral when you think you didn't do a very good job.

Brandon Barnum: For sure. Well, that's why you wanna listen for that expression of appreciation. And when you hear that referral trigger, that's the perfect time to ask for a referral because that person has just given you that feedback that they like what you do. But I like the fact that you brought up business coaching. I think this strategy actually applies to your business as well. We work with a lot of business coaches, and what they find is that they have clients that need a a whole suite of services on a regular basis. What we do in our dental coaching and consulting company is we look to be the solution hub. There's a lot of people out there that have this mindset that sales is bad or icky or wrong, and I don't wanna do that.

So we shift people's mindset from sales to service. If you're just focusing on surveys serving the client's needs and helping them get what they need and want, then it's not sales. It's just service. Right? So part of that is a mindset shift. However, in a business like a business coach, They have a suite of services to help people. They typically will have an Internet marketing team that they're working with. You know, they'll have accountants and financial people. They'll have people that are operational specialists, so different contractors, different companies, different referral partners that provide the suite of services that your clients and customers need, and the same thing I think is true for you.

Right now, it sounds like you have a lot of people coming to you for a lot of different things, and I imagine you probably have a group of people and companies that you've vetted, that you're confident in their excellence and expertise that you can refer confidently to your clients So that they get the help that they need. Right?

Jonathan Green: Yeah. That's a big part of it. Like, for example, the cover is so important for them. It's more important than the actual book, which is hard to say as a Russian writer, but the cup people won't read the book if they hit the cover. They won't even look inside, so it doesn't matter. They do judge every book by its cover. That that quote is from the 1800 when the cover of every book was just blank leather. Like, of course, don't judge a book by its cover because all the covers are blank.

Now the covers are not blank. It's a different world, but it's exactly that you people want a clean recommendation. I'll give you an example. This is like if someone says to me, hey, Jonathan. What's the best editing software? The worst thing I could say is, well, let me tell you about the top 3. You choose what's right for you. People hate that. Right? It's like, no.

Don't give me a riddle. Right? I don't wanna solve a riddle. I just give me the answer because that's what I'm really want is your expertise, and we do forget that people sometimes just want the solution. Like, one thing that's interesting, my wife and I have this weird problem that when we go to a restaurant, about 90% of time. When the meal is done and if we're looking to pay, we can't find the waiter. They're attentive and they're crushing it until that time, and this is when we this is not just where we live. This is when we travel. We travel all over the world together, and it we're with the kids, not with the kids.

It doesn't matter. And it's like, why is that when you leave? As a waiter, I would think that's your favorite part. I would I always think my favorite part of every business is always the money. It's always the most for me, the most fun part is when someone pays I love that part. But they're always not there for that, or people make it really hard to pay. I was working on a training, and I was looking at the chamber of commerce where I used to live. To join the chamber of commerce, you have to fill in a really long survey, then you have to call the person. They They don't even have a pay link on their website.

I was like, are you guys trying to go out of business? Like, what is happening here? Like, what if you just made it easy for everybody to give you money? Like, and every once in a while, I run into a business that's still living, like, really long time ago. They make it really hard to give them money. I'm like, yeah, that's why you don't have any customers because you won't let them pay you. Stop putting the wall up there. That's the worst place to put it because we're so busy thinking about, I don't wanna ask for the sale that we forget. Just let people buy what they want. When we know when I know what I want and I figure out what I want, I go for it, and I wanna kind of accomplish that. But sometimes people.

We've we're so busy thinking about ourselves. We forget how we are when we're shopping. Another example of this is that product creators always think it needs to be as big as possible. It needs to be 75 hours of content. And when someone buys it, they go, oh, 75 hours. I'm taking forever to go through this. I want too hot. Like, I want small.

We value the exact opposite thing. Like, brevity has this huge value in and of itself that I'm always struggling against. So very good to remember that. The client experience is that they have to buy these other things. They have to do these other things, and it's better not just because you're incentivized, but it's better for them to work with people you know because I I have had people come to me, then they go to someone that I don't recommend, and they have a really, really bad experience, and then they blame me. And I'm like, I didn't refer that. I got a really mean email about 3 months ago where someone was like, your product doesn't work. Here's a screenshot of this.

It's a total nightmare. And I was like, yeah. That's someone else's website that you're logged into. This is not my product. Like but I'm glad wasn't, but I was like, but they still wanted a refund of my thing. I was like, you can't do that. You can't send a refund, a picture of product b, and complain about product a. That's not cool.

Yeah. But it's like you want to remember the way people engage and what people look for. And most people, like I said, I had to learn that lesson. Oh, most people read more than 1 book on business. Most people read more than 1 book. Most people read, like, dozens of books, whatever they're just. Right? Most people buy multiple courses. Most people who succeed in online business, it's their 6th or 7th purchase that's really the winner.

They go through a couple. They go, oh, this is right for me. This isn't right for me. This idea is not working, and then they find the winner with their little bit of perseverance. That's kind of the normal curve. So sometimes we're so afraid to mention something that would actually help the person. So if you switch to that mindset, I usually talk about with sales is the diagnosis solution problem. Let me figure out what's wrong with your business, and then because sometimes I am not the right person for everyone.

I am not the right ghostwriter for every person. Like, one of my clients right now is has an abrasive personality, and I was telling her last week. I was like, I don't think we could ever be friends, but, like, I like writing in her style because I like she has a machine gun way of talking. She's like, most people find me annoying. I'm like, yeah, but I get the u. When I'm writing someone's book, I'm playing that character. It's like so sometimes the client no one wants to work with is, like, perfect for me because I enjoy being that person. That's what ghostwriting really is for me.

So it is to remember the customer experience and that your job is like, Trying to sell is only hard when you don't believe in the product or when you aren't actually helping the person or you don't think it's worth the price. And those are hurdles that a lot of people hit early on in the business. Like, oh, what should I charge my 1st client was way too low. Now I regret it. Everyone. Right? We undercharge our 1st client because we're figuring it out, and we're so afraid to ask what we're worth. This is the kind of last thing I wanna bring up, which is that when you charge more, you have more breathing room to do a good job. So when I was much, much lower.

I charge about 1% of what I do now. I'm constantly chasing new clients. I need a new project every single week, which means I couldn't focus on you a 100% because I also have to focus on the sales. So part of the reason I charge a premium price now is, like, I don't have to think about anything else because I'm working with you, because there's a payment at the beginning, there's a payment in the middle, and there's payment at those 3 things replaced. It means that I know that payment at the end is in front of me that helps me. That's why I never get in and pay a 100% upfront. I leave it in that structure and place because that's how I motivate. Knowing that there's a payment there allows me to know, oh, I don't have to chase the next client until this project finishes.

It lets me stay in the zone for you because sometimes and and this is why I don't negotiate with everyone. Like, I don't like, one of the things I never do is negotiate with surgeons. Like, I know people who do. I have a lot of friends who do, by the way, and I go, listen. The last thing I want a surgeon thinking while they're in me or one of my kids is like, man, I can't believe that guy. You know what I mean? Like, there's a time and a place to get someone who's a little bit annoyed with you, but it's like, surgeons I don't do, like, just, even if they overcharge me. Someone's like, oh, you could've gotten a better deal. I'm like, I'd still it's such a risky time to, like, play with someone.

Right? And maybe they weren't, maybe they weren't, and that's one of my policies. But most of the time, yeah, you can create you know, like, It's okay to charge a large amount of money because it actually lets you do a better job for them because it means you're not searching for the next client. So it's not just about what you charge. It's also about what you can deliver for that. It's like, yeah, I can give you more of my attention because I'm not worried about the next client. I can give you a better service. I can bring in outside if I have to because there's enough money in there for me to do those things. So we sometimes forget that there's a value to the actual higher price lets you do a lot of other things.

Right? If you're a business coach, you can bring in one of your friends, and you just pay their fee to do, like, a one off session because you have that buffer in there. So there's a lot of those things in place. So I think this has been a really cool session. You've given me some cool ideas, which I'm always looking for. You have a really amazing journey. Can you tell people where's the best place to find you? I know you've written a book, which is great. I love that it's got so many 5 stars. I always look for that because a lot of people tell me about their book, and it's a 2 star book.

Yep. Really Tell me exactly where you want people to come find you and get to spend more time with you. What's the best place that for them to go to?

Brandon Barnum: Yeah. Best place is brandonbarnum.com. There you can find out about h o a dot com, raving referrals. You can take the referral score quiz, and it'll take you less than 2 minutes. And You can actually find out how you score on the referral top ten best practices, and you can take your bank code, which a personality system. So go to brandonbarnum.com. That's got everything all at once. Last thing I wanna say, Jonathan, is my mentor is Mark Victor Hansen, chicken soup for the soul.

As you know, probably, he's, like, the number 1 top selling nonfiction author in the world. He sold over 600,000,000 books. And when I wrote raving referrals, he said, don't write a book, build a brand. And so in that, what we did is we've created a series. So the 2nd book, I Told you I have a dental consulting company raving referrals for dentists. The 3rd book comes out in 2 weeks, and it's raving referrals for mortgage pro. So we're basically taking the same content, and we're customizing it for each different audience, each industry, each niche. Right? Grow rich in a niche.

So one thing I just wanna leave your guests, your audience with is focus as closely as you can on one specific type of person so that you can really be the undisputed expert in that industry. Now what I'm doing is I'm partnering with those undisputed experts in those different industries and getting them to be the coauthor, so they're the champion taking that book out to their communities. And in doing so, we're attracting all of those different verticals and industries into predominantly HOA .com. That's really the goal here is to find the right people that wanna serve homeowners so that we can revolutionize homeowner associations and change the way the communities connect.

Jonathan Green: I love it. That's awesome. Thank you so much for being here. Another amazing episode of the serve the master podcast. I know my audience is gonna appreciate everyone. So great to have Brandon Barnum here. Learn a lot about referrals that should help every single one of your businesses. This is definitely one of our can't miss episodes, so thank you so much for being here.

Brandon Barnum: My pleasure. Thanks for having me, Jonathan.

Jonathan Green: Thank you for listening to today's episode. Starting your blog is an amazing step. Now it's time to get your first 100 raving fans as quickly as possible. Let me show you the shortcut to this milestone with my free guide at servenomaster.com/100. That's forward slash

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